Home › Forums › Shidduchim › Why religious girls do not learn Torah?
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July 31, 2016 3:49 am at 3:49 am #618049skald89Participant
When I talk to girls on dates and say I would like a girl who learns halachot that apply to her, such as shabbat, kashrut and other day to day things, they think its a weird idea. How did it become that a religious girls is defined only by her keeping shabbat, eating kosher and dressing modestly? What happened to all the other things that apply to woman?
July 31, 2016 4:28 am at 4:28 am #1165922SparklyMemberskald89 – its called anti feminism.
July 31, 2016 10:03 am at 10:03 am #1165923brisker26ParticipantWomen have no mitzvah to learn torah. They are supposed to know what is relevant to them, but this is like a hecsher mitzvah(beis halevi), as opposed to a man, who his entire essence is torah.
The Gra says that for a woman, tznius is the essence of who she is, and is her way of serving hashem, on par with a man’s torah.
July 31, 2016 1:12 pm at 1:12 pm #1165924charliehallParticipant“they think its a weird idea”
Maybe you are dating the wrong women for you.
“They are supposed to know what is relevant to them”
Which is almost everything. There are only about a dozen or so mitzvot in our times that are incumbent on men but not on women and women can and do take on most of them. And even in the Temple women could participate in the Avodah by shechting her own korban. (And some apparently did — there was a separate women’s entrance to the Courtyard of the Priests.
“Tznius is the essence of who she is”
But that is not an excuse to be ignorant. Or not fulfill mitzvot. And they can go together — a great example is the separate women’s entrance to the Courtyard of the Priests! Another great example today are the Women’s Tefillah Groups in some modern orthodox synagogues — no men allowed.
July 31, 2016 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #1165925Sam2Participantbrisker: You are wrong. You’re against a Rama.
July 31, 2016 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #1165926SparklyMemberbrisker26 – good point which is the reason why i dont learn and just go to shiurim.
July 31, 2016 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #1165927JosephParticipantBrisker is 100? correct.
July 31, 2016 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #1165928skald89ParticipantBrisker – Can you give me the source of the Beit Halevi to read it myself?
July 31, 2016 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #1165929Lilmod UlelamaidParticipantThe idea that women have no chiyuv to learn is a common misconception.
According to the Mishna Brura, women have a chiyuv to learn the halachos that apply to them, and that is why they say the Bracha of “asher kidishanu b’Mitzosav V’TZIVANU l’asok b’divrei Torah” every morning (B’iur Halacha, Siman 47, d”H “Nashim”)
Rav Avigdor Miller says in one his books that a woman would have to sit and learn for at least 60 years in order to finish learning all of the things that she is CHAYIV to learn. He says the difference between men and women is that she has more excuses not to learn than he does, but she also has a chiyuv to learn when she is able to.
Sparkly – how one learns best – whether through attending shiurim or learning independently – is an individual decision. But both ways are considered to be learning. Each person has to decide how she incorporates learning in her life, but everyone has a chiyuv to learn, however she does it.
Torah is at the center of every Jew’s life, male or female, and the only way to know what Hashem wants you to do is through learning Torah in one form or another. Every Jew has to make some time to learn, whether it’s daily, weekly or even monthly. There are so many halachos that every woman and girl MUST know. If you did not have the opportunity to learn, then you may not be held accountable for not knowing. But if you had the opportunity to learn and you didn’t, you have no excuse for being oveir on a halacha!
How many times do people complain of boredom?! Have they finished learning every Halacha that they are REQUIRED to know? If not, how can they complain of boredom? There are enough English language Sefarim out there that anyone can and must pick up and learn!!!
July 31, 2016 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #1165930Sam2Participantsparkly: Why is going to a Shiur not considered learning?
July 31, 2016 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #1165931Lilmod UlelamaidParticipantI agree with Charliehall that you are probably going out with the wrong girls. I know lots of girls who love learning and consider it an integral part of their lives. Either that, or maybe it has to do with the way you phrase the statement (I don’t know how you phrase it; I am just guessing that sometimes when something sounds funny to someone, it has to do with the way that it is phrased.)
July 31, 2016 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #1165932SparklyMemberlilmod ulelamaid – i meant i dont learn bymyself like gemara, you dont need to learn gemara. i go to shiurim and learn parsha and halacha. all the guys i know think that its totally okay to learn gemara and my rabbi also does.
July 31, 2016 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #1165933Lilmod UlelamaidParticipantSparkly – I don’t think that skald89 was talking about Gemara; he was talking about girls learning the halachos that apply to them. He didn’t say anything about how they should learn it (whether through Gemara or through attending a shiur). It sounded like the girls he went out with don’t learn at all, though any method. I think the issue was whether or not girls should be learning – not how they should be learning.
July 31, 2016 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #1165934charliehallParticipant“all the guys i know think that its totally okay to learn gemara and my rabbi also does. “
Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l said that it was a chiyuv on the community to teach gemara to girls and his position has been accepted as the normative halachah in most if not all modern orthodox communities.
My wife has learned three tractates.
July 31, 2016 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #1165935SparklyMembercharlie hall – are you mo? i thought yeshivish girls dont learn gemara?
July 31, 2016 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #1165936HealthParticipantSparkly -“charlie hall – are you mo?”
He’s more than MO – he’s Open Orthodox!
August 1, 2016 2:07 am at 2:07 am #1165937charliehallParticipant“are you mo”
I do accept that characterization of MO although the distinction between me and a charedi orthodox Jew has to do with my acceptance of science, history and secular culture rather than any differences in mitzvot observance. I have not personally identified as OO even though I agree with a few things that are done in that name (like semicha for women).
“i thought yeshivish girls dont learn gemara?”
I think you are correct and today that may be the distinction between the two. It should be pointed out though that Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l was at one point a member of the Moetzet Gedolei HaTorah of Agudath Israel of America.
August 1, 2016 2:49 am at 2:49 am #1165938SparklyMembercharlie hall – knowing science is beautiful you know the world Hashem created and how it works it has nothing to do with being mo. in fact its the exact opposite.
August 1, 2016 3:37 am at 3:37 am #1165939Lilmod UlelamaidParticipant“i thought yeshivish girls dont learn gemara?”
“I think you are correct”
That is actually not correct.There are Yeshivish girls who learn Gemara. However, it’s done on an individual basis – not as a mass thing. This is according to the way most understand the halacha of girls not learning Torah Sheb’al Peh (although there are many opinion on the topic) – that it is not something for the masses, but that there are individual women who could or should learn Gemara, assuming they are doing it for the right reasons.
August 1, 2016 4:11 am at 4:11 am #1165941SparklyMemberlilmod ulelamaid – you are absolutely correct when i was yeshivish i learnt gemara and you cant learn it with guys which gets REALLY hard because then you dont have anyone to teach it to you and no girls really learn gemara so i had to quit. now since im mo i learn it with guys which makes it MUCH easier.
August 1, 2016 4:43 am at 4:43 am #1165942Avi KParticipantThere are actually two mitzvot. Talmud Torah and limud Torah. The former involves the inner workeings of Torah (sevarot, middot shehaTorah nidreshet bahen, etc.). The latter involves learning practical mitzvot including mussar and emuna. Women are exempt from the former but obligated in the latter (therefore they say birkat haTorah in the morning). Thus, for example,a woman would not have to learn Mishna Berura or Aruch HaShulchan but she would have to learn Chayei Adam or Kitzor Shulchan Aruch. Whether and what one should teach them in our time is a matter of discussion and different commuities have different approaches.
August 1, 2016 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #1165943skald89ParticipantI am dating the wrong girls. Trying to make things like this clearer to the shadchanim.
The way I have learned and even double check from the Rambam, there are two different types learning. Learning Tanacah and the Oral Torah to be able to derive what is permitted and forbidden (the halacah) is called Limud Torah. That is what a woman is not obligated to do and should not do.
Learning halachot and musar are not forbidden for woman to learn. And its only an obligation for them. I don’t understand the logic of girls who think they can be religious without knowing Halachot. You can do so many things wrong everyday without being aware they are wrong, due to the lack of learning.
August 1, 2016 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #1165944Lilmod UlelamaidParticipantAvi, I disagree with you about women learning Kitzor Shulchan Aruch or Chayei Adam as opposed to Mishna Berura. If you learn Kitzur Shulchan Aruch or Chayei Adam, you will not know what to do l’maaseh. It is true that there are times when we don’t posken according to the Mishna Berurah, but in general, if you act according to the Mishna Berurah, you are on safe grounds. The best is to learn Mishna Berurah with Dirshu (that’s what I do), since he brings the opinions of the contemporary poskim.
The only problem with women learning Mishna Berurah might be that most women don’t have the necessary training and background, and might come to “posken” incorrectly. I assume that is why many schools learn Kitzur Shulchan Aruch. In any case, if one wants to ensure that she knows halacha l’maaseh properly, she is probably best off reading a quality English Halacha Seifer, but I don’t think they exist yet for every topic.
I have not actually come across one yet for Cheilik Alef, although I have been looking for such a thing, since I am teaching it now.
August 1, 2016 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #1165945apushatayidParticipantThey dont learn torah? What is learning Tanach with pirush Rashi, Ramban, Ibn Ezra, Seforno and Malbim called? You could debate the necessity of them learning that, but it is torah, even if it isnt learned in Yeshivos.
August 1, 2016 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #1165946Lilmod UlelamaidParticipantapushatayid – I understood that skald69 is saying that the girls he dates don’t learn those things. When they were in high school and seminary, they had no choice, but now they don’t learn anymore.
August 1, 2016 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #1165947skald89ParticipantLilmod – Yes, that is correct. Learning in school doesn’t count, especially when it ends after school. I never learned Shakespeare after high school because it wasn’t important to me.
August 1, 2016 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #1165948apushatayidParticipantThe gemara clearly isnt bothered by this question.
Nashim, bmai zachyi……
August 1, 2016 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #1165949NechomahParticipantI think girls learn a great deal of halacha while in BY and even in seminary. They have to know what is necessary for the lives they are living at that time. I mean how have they been keeping Shabbos and kashrus up until now. I mean my daughter had a test in 10th or 11th grade on the 39 melachos and she had to know tons of stuff by heart. Does she need to take a whole new class on hilchos Shabbos before she gets married?
When she gets married and starts getting involved in new situations that she never came across before, then she should not hesitate to ask questions about them to find out the proper way to behave in these new situations. You will find classes for married women in things like Hilchos Shabbos and maybe even kashrus in various neighborhoods, but perhaps it is something that the husband and wife can learn together on a case-by-case basis when she has something new she is not sure about. Of course, as a married woman, she has a whole new set of halachos to learn about for taharas hamishpacha.
More enriching for a woman is to learn hashkafa and mussar. These help shape her attitudes about the things she is involved with until the time she gets married and hopefully a girl who likes to learn these kinds of things before she gets married will continue on afterwards. Again, this can be learned between the husband and wife and will help keep them on the same page hashkafically (I hope).
Depending on what exactly you want your future wife’s focus to be, you could tell a shadchan that you are looking for someone who is into spiritual growth and sees learning as being an important part of her life at the present time and wants to continue after she gets married.
August 1, 2016 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #1165950SparklyMemberskald 89 – what type of guy are you? Maybe i know a girl for you.
lilmod ulelamaid – not every girl is like me. thats why its surprising that im dating mo guys. not every girl sits around learning halachos and going to shiurim after seminary.
August 2, 2016 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #1165951skald89ParticipantI don’t know what they teach in a Bais Yaakov high school. Its a great thing if it as you presented it. I do still believe that there needs to be continuing education after school.
I do not believe a girl needs to learn every day or every other day. But a once a week learning/review of basic halachot and mussar/outlook is important. We are all human and forget things. A girl can stumble just as much as a guy.
A girl should not and does not need to learn how to make a halachic decision in specific cases. A Rav should be consulted.
@Sparkly – I don’t understand the question of “What type of guy are you?” I don’t like labels.
August 2, 2016 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #1165952jewishfeminist02Member“A girl should not and does not need to learn how to make a halachic decision in specific cases. A Rav should be consulted.”
Can you clarify what you mean by this?
August 2, 2016 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #1165953Lilmod UlelamaidParticipantNechoma, as someone who has been studying halacha my entire life and teaching it for several years, I can tell you that it takes many, many, years of studying halacha in order to know all the basic halachos that you need to know on a daily basis.
I attended a Bais Yaakov high school and know many others who have and I do not know a single person who knows all of the halachos that one needs to know on a daily basis.
I have known very-seriously-Frum Bais Yaakov graduates from very-seriously-Frum families who were not aware of and were oiver on basic halachos such as cutting up a salad on Shabbos several hours before the meal and speaking about melachos that they were going to perform during the week.
To take one (very important) example, I know very few people (men or women) who know all of the halachos of dibbur chol on Shabbos and people (including Bnei Torah) are oveir on it all of the time without even realizing it.
To take another example: I taught Hilchos Brachos last year, and I studied it in depth, and I realized that there are many, many halachos that people are not aware of. For example, most people (of both genders including B’nei Torah) think that if you have a Haetz and a Haadamah, you make the bracha on the Haetz first, and this is incorrect according to the Mishna Berurah and most comtemporary Poskim.
August 2, 2016 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #1165954Lilmod UlelamaidParticipantAlso, even though I have been studying halacha in depth for many years, I am continually coming across new Halachos!
August 2, 2016 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #1165955Shopping613 ðŸŒParticipantskald89: I agree that more effort should be put into learning halachot. In high school halacha class was the one everyone tuned out really. It’s the mentality that we don’t HAVE to learn it so much, girls say: “I don’t need to learn kashrut, I learned from my mother by doing what she did” but limasseh it will be problamatic when there is one thing that goes wrong- everything will be a sheilah.
I know many girls, myself including who learn on their own time halacha. Either getting emails, learning from a book, or from a whatsapp group. Awareness is spreading.
I still don’t know about halacha. I hope to learn more, but I also hope I can rely on my future to be husband. Women have much to worry about, the house, kids, even parnassah (in many cases, although it should not be this way). I believe, although it is very nice you want a woman who knows halacha, it is impractical.
But now reading through more of your posts it seems to be you are more looking for someone who knows the Halachot for the mitzvot she does every day, and a desire to want to learn more and not be uneducated about the other mitzvot she is doing as her tafkid in this world. You are looking more for someone who is open to learning and also sees the value in the idea of learning halacha and mussar.
I wish you all the luck in finding a wife. Maybe we should have some shidduchim done over the CR lol. Seems like plenty of single people here. About mussar, in my school we learned mussar from books not just speeches, and discussions. We learned chovos halevavos, and other books.
August 2, 2016 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #1165956SparklyMembershopping 613 – the kinds of girls and guys on here are too diverse and i dont think anyone on here would be good for me. but nice try. i need someone pro feminism and most guys on here are anti feminism. but maybe i know a girl for one of the guys.
August 3, 2016 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #1165957Shopping613 ðŸŒParticipantPolitics aren’t that important in a marriage.
August 3, 2016 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #1165958Sam2ParticipantLU: For example, most people (of both genders including B’nei Torah) think that if you have a Haetz and a Haadamah, you make the bracha on the Haetz first, and this is incorrect according to the Mishna Berurah and most comtemporary Poskim.
Source please? That doesn’t seem even slightly correct. I’m pretty sure Eitz before Adamah is a Mishnah or Baraisa.
August 3, 2016 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #1165959jewishfeminist02MemberFeminism isn’t politics.
August 3, 2016 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #1165960Shopping613 ðŸŒParticipantI know, I am a feminist too, but I don’t think guys on here are anti feminists.
August 3, 2016 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #1165961mik5ParticipantFor example, most people (of both genders including B’nei Torah) think that if you have a Haetz and a Haadamah, you make the bracha on the Haetz first, and this is incorrect according to the Mishna Berurah and most comtemporary Poskim.
It is better to make Haetz first. This is the opinion of the Behag, although it says in Shulchan Aruch OC 211 that you can pick which one to eat first, but the minhag is not like the Shulchan Aruch.
August 3, 2016 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #1165962☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantI think there’s a typo in your post. Ordinarily, Ha’etz comes first.
?”? ??”? ??: ??”? ????”? ???? – ??????? ???????? ????? ????? ??”? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ?? ??”? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??”? ??”? ??? ?? ??”? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?????
August 3, 2016 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #1165963HealthParticipantLU-“Avi, I disagree with you about women learning Kitzor Shulchan Aruch or Chayei Adam as opposed to Mishna Berura. If you learn Kitzur Shulchan Aruch or Chayei Adam, you will not know what to do l’maaseh. It is true that there are times when we don’t posken according to the Mishna Berurah, but in general, if you act according to the Mishna Berurah, you are on safe grounds. The best is to learn Mishna Berurah with Dirshu (that’s what I do), since he brings the opinions of the contemporary poskim.
The only problem with women learning Mishna Berurah might be that most women don’t have the necessary training and background, and might come to “posken” incorrectly. I assume that is why many schools learn Kitzur Shulchan Aruch. In any case, if one wants to ensure that she knows halacha l’maaseh properly, she is probably best off reading a quality English Halacha Seifer, but I don’t think they exist yet for every topic.
To take another example: I taught Hilchos Brachos last year, and I studied it in depth, and I realized that there are many, many halachos that people are not aware of. For example, most people (of both genders including B’nei Torah) think that if you have a Haetz and a Haadamah, you make the bracha on the Haetz first, and this is incorrect according to the Mishna Berurah and most comtemporary Poskim.”
The thing you’re rallying about applies to you!
You just proved girls should Not learn Mishnah Brurah!
From Halachahpedia:
“HaEtz and HaAdama
August 3, 2016 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #1165964Lilmod UlelamaidParticipantFor all those people who are arguing with me about the order of priorities when eating a HaEtz and a HaAdama, please see: Biur Halacha, Siman 211, d”h: “V’yesh omrim shegam…” and Shaar Hatzion 5.
There is a machlokes Rishonim which comes first. There are several opinions including an opinion that it goes by chaviv (which one you like best) and an opinion that HaEtz takes priority. L’maaseh, the Mishna Berurah poskens that we hold according to the opinion that it goes by chaviv not by Haetz. If both are chaviv, then it goes by Sheva Minim or Shalem. In Shaar Hatzion, he says that he is not sure which of those two take priority – sheva minim or shalem – but in any case they both take priority over Haetz. It is only in a case where there is no chaviv or sheva minim or shalem (or both are shalem) that he says to take the Haetz opinion into account.*
There are other opinions. I think the Kaf HaChaim might hold that HaEtz comes first, but generally speaking, Ashkenazim poskim by the Mishna Berurah over the Kaf Hachaim. In Rav Bodner and Rav Forst’s sefarim, they posken according to the Mishna Berurah in this issue. And anytime I had this argument with anyone who thought the Halacha was that Haetz came first, it was not because they were quoting the Kaf Hachaim but rather because they thought that’s what the Mishna Berurah said, until I showed them the B’iur Halacha and they realized I was right.
Health and DY: I’m not sure what your point is. The sources you’re quoting simply prove my point!!! The Mishna Berurah does not hold by the opinion that Haetz comes first. He holds by the opinion that chaviv comes first, and is only choshesh for that opinion if there is no chaviv, shalem or 7 Minim.
* He does also take it into account in 2 other cases: 1. If he likes the Haadama better in general, but he likes the Haetz better now and it is a 7 Minim, then the M.B. says to make the bracha on the Haetz first. 2. If he he likes the Haadama better in general but he likes the Haetz better now, even if it’s not a 7 minim, he says that perhaps you should make the bracha on the Haetz first.
Bottom line, he does not posken that Haetz comes first; he takes that opinion into account in certain circumstances.
August 3, 2016 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #1165965Lilmod UlelamaidParticipantHealth and DY: btw, you neglected to mention that when the Haadama is shalem it comes first according to the Mishna Berurah even if it’s not chaviv or 7 minim.
August 4, 2016 12:26 am at 12:26 am #1165966HealthParticipantLU -“Health and DY: I’m not sure what your point is. The sources you’re quoting simply prove my point”
Wrong! I’m proving my point!
“You just proved girls should Not learn Mishnah Brurah”
“Health and DY: btw, you neglected to mention that when the Haadama is shalem it comes first according to the Mishna Berurah even if it’s not chaviv or 7 minim”
I wasn’t talking about Shalame.
“For example, most people (of both genders including B’nei Torah) think that if you have a Haetz and a Haadamah, you make the bracha on the Haetz first, and this is incorrect according to the Mishna Berurah and most comtemporary Poskim.”
This is what we were talking about!
The impression from your post is to say Haadomah first.
This is WRONG!
Girls should stick to Kitzur Shulchan Aruch!
Your defense is No defense.
We’re still right, even though you made a long post defending yourself!
August 4, 2016 12:40 am at 12:40 am #1165967☕ DaasYochid ☕Participantyou neglected to mention that when the Haadama is shalem it comes first according to the Mishna Berurah even if it’s not chaviv or 7 minim.
You neglected to say that ordinarily, you say haetz first.
I simply quoted the Mishna Berurah.
August 4, 2016 12:45 am at 12:45 am #1165968👑RebYidd23ParticipantWomen don’t like being told that they can’t use their brains, Health.
August 4, 2016 1:14 am at 1:14 am #1165969SparklyMembershopping 613 – im a feminist and want my husband to treat me as an equal. i dont want him to disrespect me and tell me i cant do something because im a girl. but anyways the guys that i date are the type to be like “i believe in feminism! women in stem!” and treat me as if im an equal and never tell me i cant do something because im a girl.
August 4, 2016 1:27 am at 1:27 am #1165970dovrosenbaumParticipantI see no inherent value in women learning torah. They should be taught the dinim that apply to them, and that’s it.
August 4, 2016 1:35 am at 1:35 am #1165971👑RebYidd23ParticipantYou will never father a child. Just because you’re a girl.
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