December 20, 2013 3:56 am at 3:56 am #994758
SYAG- I WANT TO BE YOUR BEST FRIEND!!! your story is exactly mine!!!! I totally agree with everything your saying, and funny enough that is similar to my understanding 🙂 (also I totally didnt think you were a girl this whole time haha)I guess alot of the ideas we have we just need to instill in our kids, and I totally agree, Im always hoping something I say someone somewhere of any hashkafa will say oh, maybe I should give the other a chance etc.
saysme- I think the two ideas go hand in hand (understanding and judging) They are negativly correlated, where the more you understand someone, the less likely you are to judge them and the less you understand someone the more likely you are to judge them.December 20, 2013 4:47 am at 4:47 am #994759SaysMeMember
right i agree they are! But even if someone doesnt understand another, they can instead approach it from the other starting point: choose not to judge and therefore come to accept them for who they are. Im a big pusher of being dan lkaf zchus, and of not judging others, expecially others you dont know or dont know about, and i rly believe not looking to judge others, accepting them for who they are whether we agree or disagree with their approach, would remove so much of the ‘politics’ and sinas chinam among sections of klal yisraelDecember 20, 2013 5:40 am at 5:40 am #994760HaKatanParticipant
I’m not sure how much clearer I could have been that I am not judging anyone, but I’ll try again.
I also agree that a Zionist could be a tinok sheNishba just as could anyone else. But this is irrelevant.
As I’ve said before, there is a difference between “not judging someone” and making kosher what they are doing.
Put simply, someone who worships an idol, no matter how much you like them and no matter what their background is, has just done a severe sin. While they may not know any better or have some other reason for doing so, and might, therefore deserve the benefit of the doubt (Hashem certainly knows everything, including his background, intention, etc.), there is no dispute that idolatry is idolatry and is forbidden.
So to, with Zionism (or any other aveira, for that matter), a person’s upbringing and education is only relevant as regarding motives, schar/viOnesh, etc. But this is all irrelevant to the definition of Zionism. Zionism is idolatry and shmad. Period. There is no real dispute about this.
Given the name of this particular forum, I believe it is very appropriate to delineate where Zionism stands vis a vis the Torah.
As I said, I am not judging anyone, but one has nothing to do with the other.
Rav Elchonon, as I quoted before, wrote in ikvisa diMishicha that Nationalism and, lihavdil, Judaism is simply A”Z and, lihavdil, Judaism mixed together. Rav Chaim Brisker held similarly and even Rabbi JB Soloveichik publicly confirmed this view of Rav Chaim.
“Not judging” does not mean that Avoda Zara can, CH”V, be considered legitimate by observant Jews just as the baal and any other idol is correctly and absolutely not considered, CH”V, a legitimate Torah path. Zionism is indisputably A”Z and shmad.December 20, 2013 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #994761
Hakatan- I understand everythig you are saying. Im not here to say your wrong. Im just here to open your eyes. And im very very sorry I said you were being judgemental. I really just meant to open your eyes to reality of it.
You cannot blame someone who was brought up bnei akiva their entire life for doing avoda zara and expect them to agree with you. like read ovee your post, put urself in the shoes of someone who is a strong zionist and tell me, does the frum veldt seem like a ftiednly place to be if THAT is whay they think of us?
If you believe that Zionism is idolatry then why are you telling me lol. Im not zionistic. Go tell someone who is. Bt I gurantee you they will not listen tk you if you speak thst way. Your a very paasiante and wise person but you are lacking a small bit of ahavas chinam. Baseless love. Thats all it is. you want to help your fwllow jew, start loving them. I was a passionate Zionist. I changed because I learned diffrently. Many many ppl dont and they are ignorant whether they realize it or they just genuinly belive they sre right (which is most people). The Torah tells us we shouldnt show off Judaism to others rather we should just set by example. Thats exactly how I fell in love with the frum world. I saw how beautiful the family unit was. How special the relatoonship was between a husband and wife because they dont talk to other gender. How much Torah is incorperated into life. Its nkt just a subject in class its exciting. And I know many MO people that are very frum. But to me no one pushed me to believe anything. it happened over time. Where I intreacted with many chareidim who were so loving and answered my questions and took me into their home and showed me what a frum family unit looked like with Torah coming out of eveyones ears. I believe you are an incredible person because I seem to be attackig you yet you keep calm and explaining your side. and im not telling you the information you have is wrong. Im saying try gearing it a little differently. you never know who stumbles upon this website ( I did before I changed my derech and I was a turned off a little by some posters in the beginning)December 20, 2013 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #994762
Saysme- so beautifully said 🙂 thanks for your post!December 20, 2013 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #994763HaKatanParticipant
OURTorah, again, thanks.
I fail to see how you concluded I am missing “a small bit” of Ahavas Chinam, based on my words here, but that’s okay…
As I mentioned before, this site is called “Yeshiva World”. So, just as on a “Mizrachi World”, I would expect to see Rabbi Kook almost deified, I would similarly expect to see a “Yeshiva” perspective on YWN, which includes stating the facts of Zionism just as they are.
Of course, for the same reason, I likely would not post (in any manner) on a “Mizrachi World”, because I would assume my comments would be universally rejected there due to the conflict between those comments and their theology.
Again, I don’t believe I have demonstrated any “intolerance” of anyone. So nobody should be “turned off” by anyone or anything here.
But I do appreciate your reminder that baalei teshuva and others who have been raised differently may visit the site.
But because of the educated and observant readership of this site, I feel my direct approach with “Yeshiva World” people in mind is an appropriate approach to all readers.
If anyone has a better way, I’d be happy to hear it.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.