February 27, 2014 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #612234Little FroggieMember
(oh well, a real one now)
Was reading that story, beginning of Shmuel, how she tried to get Channa to Daven earnestly. My question is, didn’t she ultimately get the wheels moving? Shouldn’t Channa have to be appreciative and indebted to her for her prodding? She brought out the best of Channa, she stormed the gates of Shamayim, and HaShem in His mercy listened and granted her a child. Had Penina not done her part, maybe Channa would still have been childless.
Actually that question comes to my mind every Rosh Hashana when we read this most moving story.February 27, 2014 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #1007077🐵 ⌨ GamanitParticipant
Al pi Torah, the end does not justify the means. Being a Robin Hood is totally wrong. Yes, she wanted to get Chana to daven, but what she did was onaah. Onaah is assur even if something good comes out of it.February 27, 2014 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #1007078
While Penina’s intentions were pure, she did cause Chana major grief. You don’t get rewarded for doing an “aveira lishma” no matter how perfect your intentions are. If you are trying to help someone, but in the process you cause damage to the person you are helping, how much of a help are you really?
Also, we have to remember that Penina was a tzaddeikis, which can easily explain not why she got a punishment, but why the punishment was so harsh.February 27, 2014 11:21 pm at 11:21 pm #1007079the-art-of-moiParticipant
I think that it’s unfair that people named Penina have only negativity written about them in Tanach 🙁February 27, 2014 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #1007080
There’s a difference between a clear cut reason for an act and a behavior that a good intention was attributed to it.February 28, 2014 12:17 am at 12:17 am #1007081midwesternerParticipant
Dayan Dunner once asked that question at a Bain Adam Lachaveiro session in the mountains one summer. His response was that no cheshbonos of lishmah help when one makes another feel bad.February 28, 2014 1:14 am at 1:14 am #1007082morahmomParticipant
There’s never an excuse for verbal abuse.February 28, 2014 2:19 am at 2:19 am #1007083Bookworm120Participant
@morahmom – Exactly. Ultimately, Peninah’s actions were what set things in motion, but theoretically, there’s always at least good way and at least one bad way to go about doing something. I think Peninah, with good intentions, ended up choosing a less-than-ideal approach in motivating Channah to pray harder for a baby.
Of course, who am I to question Hashem’s decision to have things turn out this way? Gam zu letovah. Maybe by having things happen this way, not only did Channah become motivated to pray harder; maybe Peninah improved herself in some way as well. Perhaps it was concerning how to properly motivate a fellow Jew to pray with loads of kavannah. I bet she didn’t repeat that approach after that.February 28, 2014 6:41 am at 6:41 am #1007084
I think I can say that I disagree with every single reply here so far (other than my own, obviously).February 28, 2014 11:38 am at 11:38 am #1007085King19Member
The gemara in sanhedrin discusses Aaron Hakohen and his decision to make the eigel. Although he saved bnei yisroel, because they had already killed Hur, and if they killed Aaron (a Kohen..) they would be deserving to be wiped out. So he decided to go with them so he doesn’t die and let them attain forgiveness for the eigel then him getting killed and getting wiped. STILL, he was held responsible for doing heshbonos and not dying Al kiddush Hashem and not doing the eigel. So too by penina, her intentions were pure and ended up doing a lot of good… but lemaaseh…not up to her to do these heshbonos and was held responsible for the hurt she caused.February 28, 2014 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #1007086
I think its cute how all women automatically identify with Channah, when their own nature is most similar to Pennina. Always trying to ‘fix’ other people, unsolicited. Pretty clear from this Navi that women don’t get schar for doing this. That’s the lesson here.
I guess its tough when you’re tafkid in life is housework, and so women try to make up their own tafkid, like learning Torah or volunteering as mashgiach ruchni. I wouldn’t know.February 28, 2014 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #1007087
Was Yaal allowed to do what she did? Did Yehudis get punished for what she did? Was Rebbi Chanina allowed to banish Rav to get him to leave Eretz Yisroel? Was Shmuel allowed to pain Rav when he got Bavel so as to heal his stomach problem? Were the countless Rabbeim allowed to punish their Talmidim?
The difference between having a good intention and doing a particular act for a certain reason is that in the former you are doing something wrong and usually this will come along with the pleasure of doing that wrong deed. On the other hand, when an isolated act is commited for a reason, the intention is pure and the reason is the absolute only drive.
In case this is not understood, take this point: a long term Aveira can’t be Lishma, but a one time act is possible to be completely Lishma.
Bein Adam Lachaveiro is very hard to be completely Lishma because we are always in competition. This makes it nearly impossible not to have any ulterior motives. However, a Rebbe, who knows that he loves the Talmud and is Mekayem Havei Kvod Talmidecha Chaviv Alecha Kishelcha, can do something measured completely for the sake of the Talmud. There are many stories of Tzadikim yelling at a person thus alleviating a Kitrug on that person. I personally know of such incidents, where a person got a big Yeshua after something like that. But, don’t try this at home — like Penina.February 28, 2014 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #1007088jewishfeminist02Member
“I think its cute how all women automatically identify with Channah, when their own nature is most similar to Pennina.”
Sure…because “all women” identify with Chana…and “all women” are more like Penina. Hey, wait, Chana and Penina were both women! So Penina identified with Chana and Chana was like Penina?
If you “wouldn’t know”, then don’t speculate.February 28, 2014 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #1007089
Channah most definitely was like Pennina, manifesting after she had children. Like I said, all women. Try harder 🙂February 28, 2014 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #1007090jewishfeminist02Member
Rephrase based on your original statement: Like all women, Chana was more similar to Penina than to Chana.March 1, 2014 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #1007091
Squeak, the only reason Penina didn’t lose all of her children after Channah started to have children was because of Channah. So how exactly did Channah become like Penina?
FYI, I would not abuse someone just to make them daven harder…March 2, 2014 12:00 am at 12:00 am #1007092
Well put, jfem. I like.March 2, 2014 12:29 am at 12:29 am #1007093
sheep- why didnt Channah forgive Pennina and daven for her children to live right away? Why did she wait until all but one died? Because she wanted to fix her.March 2, 2014 2:36 am at 2:36 am #1007094
Squeak, you shouldn’t really be talking like that about a Nevi’ah.March 3, 2014 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #1007095
Perhaps she was davening all along for Penina. Perhaps that was the way Hashem wanted it – that Penina needed to lose children so she should feel some of Channah’s pain. Squeak, you can’t ascribe imaginary reasons to the thought processes of two very special and holy women, and nor to females in general. You don’t know why a person does what they do, unless you are that person.March 9, 2014 5:32 am at 5:32 am #1007096HealthParticipant
streekgeek -“While Penina’s intentions were pure, she did cause Chana major grief. You don’t get rewarded for doing an “aveira lishma” no matter how perfect your intentions are. If you are trying to help someone, but in the process you cause damage to the person you are helping, how much of a help are you really?”
I’m surprised noone brought down the Gemorah – B’B 16a- that says both the Soton and Penina meant L’shaim Shomayim! Not a great compliment.March 9, 2014 10:31 am at 10:31 am #1007097
I see that Squeak has nothing to replyMarch 9, 2014 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #1007098
I’m surprised noone brought down the Gemorah – B’B 16a- that says both the Soton and Penina meant L’shaim Shomayim! Not a great compliment.
Health: What exactly does the gemara say there?March 9, 2014 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #1007099
That’s the Gemara that The Frog was quoting. That’s where it says that her intention was to get Channa to Daven. Health figured out that since the Gemara put the Sattan in the same sentence — that his intentions were good when he spoke against Iyuv, so as not to take away from the Zechus of Avraham — it must be a negative statement. That is obviously the opposite intention of that Gemara, though.March 10, 2014 12:37 am at 12:37 am #1007100
Thanks haleivi. Still trying to wrap my female brain around all this…March 10, 2014 1:30 am at 1:30 am #1007101rationalfrummieMember
I think that gemara in bava basra is more trying to put satan in a positive light than peninah in a negative one. Of course Peninah acted l’shem shamayim! Rathe, the chiddush of Rabbi Levi is that so did Satan!March 10, 2014 2:20 am at 2:20 am #1007102zemanParticipant
I heard in the name of Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz zt’l that when you hurt another Jew it’s like putting your hand in fire. If you see someone’s wallet fall into the fire and you stick your hand in the fire to save the wallet from burning up – what are you going to say “I had good intentions, why did my hand burn”?
So too, Penina had good intentions, but still she hurt Chana very badly. Every Yom Tov when you’re supposed to be happy, Chana had to hear Penina’s shtuchs and farshter her whole Yom Tov – so Penina had to pay the price.March 10, 2014 2:56 am at 2:56 am #1007103HealthParticipant
HaLeiVi -“it must be a negative statement. That is obviously the opposite intention of that Gemara, though.”
I agree that it’s not the Posheh Pshat. My Chiddush is when you do something L’shem Shomayim it could turn out bad.
The Soton meant well and it turned out bad; Penina meant well and it turned out bad. Why does the Gemmora care what the Sotton does & why? To teach you that even the Sotton acts L’shem Shomayim, but it doesn’t mean good comes out of it.
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