November 2, 2018 8:06 am at 8:06 am #1615577
Thank you AviT . I don’t know if you’re following up on this, but if you are: There are many sources that reshaim will remain reshaim in olam haba as well. One example: Midrash in the beginning of shir hashirim that says leasid lavo at the seudas livyasan, the reshaim will serve the tzadikim.November 2, 2018 8:06 am at 8:06 am #1615578
@FakeMAven, thank you. I don’t quite understand. The ramchal said our purpose in the world is to earn reward. Are you implying differently?November 2, 2018 8:25 am at 8:25 am #1615579
“Square Root of 2, why do you say that the pint is not to be embarrassed? What about those being punished?”
I am quite honestly quite frustrated–angry, really–with everyone who comments without reading the posts. You apparently didn’t even read the title.
“As for my point of Bechira, you have to truly envision such a universe before tossing the explanation. If the fact is that there is no concept of a Cheit (whether preordained or selective universe) then there is no active Bechira. (Yes, I know your point of view, which is why I worded it that way.)”
So please explain your point of view on bechira and how that’s contradictory to a world where only tzaddikim live.November 3, 2018 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #1616085
Square Root of 2, Chabadshlucha: What I’m saying is that although the Ramchal does in fact say that is the purpose, he does not mean it as THE purpose. Let me explain. We find at least three reasons in Chazal why Hashem created the world, of which one of them is because Hashem wanted to bestow goodness. But in order to say that, one must say that Hashem must have created the world, for if the תכלית of the Ultimate Good is to bestow, if He doesn’t than he dis lacking in shleimus, which is why he created the world. However obviously one cannot say that about Hashem, whatever He does MUST be of his own free will, for, if not, then he is not omnipotent. What then does the Ramchal mean?
The answer lies in what the Tikunei Zohar says, אנת הוא ממלא כל עלמין וסובב כל עלמין. What this means is, that there are two ways of how Hashem runs the world, one is in a ‘revealed’ way, the other hidden. Chazal tell us מה הנשמה ממלא את הגוף כך הקב”ה ממלא את העולם. With this expression they are teaching us a profound lesson, which ties in with the two Mitzvohs of Emunah and Yedias Hashem.
The fact that Hashem exists is something which can be proven through logic. Just as that a person has a soul which is his consciousness is something all must agree upon, for otherwise there is no “I” or ‘you”. I think, therefore I am, i.e. if “I” can think than the “I” must exist. However, we can’t see this “I”, yet we know it exists because we can FEEL it. In other words sense perception, (what we can sense with our five senses), is not what tells us what is reality, it is not our eyes that see, rather it THROUGH our eyes we see. There is a whole world which we can’t see but we can feel, and in truth that is what really exists. The ‘I’ (i.e. our soul) is what sees and interacts with the world through the body. [Obviously this is a very broad topic, but I hope this would suffice].
Now, we know that the soul exists, however we do not know what it truly is, we know the concept, but do not know the substance of it. The same is true with Hashem, we know that he exists, the same way we know that the soul exists. Moreover we can even “feel” him much the same way we feel our soul. This is called ממלא, and is what Chazal meant by מה הנשמה ממלא וכו’.
However the same way that we know of the existence of the soul but not its substance (מהות), the same is true with Hashem on a deeper level. Although we can truly ‘feel’ and ‘connect’ to Hashem, that is only on the level that he has ‘decided’ to ‘lower’ Himself down to our comprehension, (which, in a much abridged version is what is meant by [one of the] Tzimtzum); however, on the level that he did not and does not let us ‘feel’ we cannot relate to him at all. Although his omnipotence says that He HImself is everywhere, we cannot “feel” this. We believe it to be true because that is what Hashem has told us through the Torah, but that is all that we can know until Moshiach comes.
These two ideas, ממלא וסובב correspond to the two aforementioned mitzvohs, Emunah and Yediah. The mitzvah Yediah does not mean the knowledge of Hashem which can be known logically, rather the outcome of this knowing, in other words “feeling” Hashem; which is why it is called “Yediaas Hashem” from the word Daas which means connection. This connection only a Jew can feel because of the Nefesh Elokis that only Jews have (which is a discussion in its own right). So, although a gentile can know logically the concepts of ממלא, the outcome of it which is what the mitzvah of Yediaas Hashem is, they cannot ‘feel’.
The mitzvah of Emunah is refering to ‘part’ of Hashem that we too cannot feel (until Moshiach will come). However, the highest level of our soul can feel it, but we on this world do not, which is what the definition of סובב is.
After this introduction we can understand what the Ramchal means, with the addition of one more point. Hashem could have created the world in any way he would of wanted, yet he chose to create the world the way we currently have it. Why? The real answer to this is: We don’t know. Simple. The reason is, that knowledge, (i.e. our ability to reason) is in ITSELF a creation, therefore any question that transcended the creation of knowledge itself is completely unintelligible to humans.
So for which ever reason Hashem ‘decided’ to create the world the way we have it. He did this by creating exactly Ten Sefiros, not more not less. If he would have created a different amount then the world would be completely different than we have now. Each Sefirah is unique. Now Chazal tell us that originally Hashem ‘wanted’ to create the world with Din, i.e. the Sefirah of Gevurah but then decided to create it through Chesed, Olam Chesed Yabonah. Now the question of WHY Hashem decided to create the world at all is not addressed here at all, rather all it is saying is when Hashem, for whichever reason, decided to create the world he did it through Chesed.
Now we know that Chesed is the ultimate Goodness, on this we can ask a simple question, how can we say that Hashem created the world through the Middah of Chesed (not that HE is Chesed, since Chesed itself is a creation), there is so much suffering and pain in the world, why not give everyone a free ride?. For this reason we say that since תכלית הטוב להטבי, and if the reward would be ‘unearned’ it wouldn’t be pure Goodness. In other words since the world was created through pure Goodness, we must understand how what we see is actually set up that way; but it is not addressing the question of WHY it was created that way to begin with.
Now, all this is in regards to ממלא, we can feel all the above. However the question of Bechira touches on Sovev, it is something we cannot understand because we cannot feel it. But, by definition, if it doesn’t interact with us, it doesn’t affect us either, as only what does interact with something can affect it. So even though there is for Hashem a Yedia of what will transpire, since it doesn’t interact with us, it doesn’t affect us and therefore does not affect our free will at all, this is known as ידיעה עילאה. [admittedly a hard concept and deserves elaboration for a different time]. But ידיעה תתאה, which is what sustains the world and interacts with it, is what is meant by saying תכלית הטוב להטיב, and in truth, being of a lower level than סובב, since it is IN each and every being according to THEIR level, has in truth no knowledge of the future.
I hope this clarified my meaning somewhat.November 4, 2018 1:11 am at 1:11 am #1616170Avi KParticipant
1. The Chazon Ish says that emunah is the belief that whatever happens is for the good.
2. According to Rashi (Bereisheet 1:1) Hashem partnered Din and Rachamim (apparently using it as a synonym for chesed)/ The Zohar also says that Avraham had junk (Yishmael) because he was completely chesed (this was also a reason for the Akeida – he had to do something against chesed so that we would have a balance). Yitzchak had Eisav because he was completely din. Yaakov was perfect because he combined them. Rachamim, BTW, is sometimes used to indicate this combination. For example, if a person is chayav mitta c”v Hashem might make him poor (see Nedarim 64b). He might further do it gradually so that the emotional blow is softened.November 6, 2018 12:44 am at 12:44 am #1617883
AviK: Actually that is not what the CI says. First of all, he wouldn’t go against all the Rishonim (see Rambam Mitzvah Asai 1 and Ramban there). Second what the CI was explaining was the practical differecne between Emunah and Bitochen; he says that since we believe (the mitzvah of Emunah according to the understanding of the Rishonim) the Hashem is omnipotent, then all he does is for the best. That is rule (or in his words the halacha), the part which is le’masah, is bitachon, when one is tested.November 9, 2018 7:27 am at 7:27 am #1620504
@FM, Thanks for your time…thaat was one of the longest posts I’ve ever seen.
But I’m still confused. Your answer seems to be
1. Hashem originally wasn’t going to create the world with chesed, but then decided to.
2. The ramchal’s axiom is only applicable once it was created with chesed,
3. We don’t really know why Hashem created the world. And we’re not supposed to know.
4. There;s no conflict between yediah and bechirah.November 12, 2018 1:55 am at 1:55 am #1621185
square root of 2: Not quite. I think it would be more practical to break down your argument in a more syllogistic form and answer it thus.
Premise A) Hashem created the world in order to bestow the ultimate good.
Premise B) Hashem knows ultimately that certain people would not be able to receive this good.
Conclusion (question) C) Therefore, why did Hashem create those people.
Before I get to my answer, I think it prudent to clarify these points. In the statement of premise A lies some hidden propositions. First of all, THIS is the reason why Hashem created the world from the start. Secondly, the Ultimate good referred to here means the reward in the world to come which cannot be a “free gift”. Premise B implies that regardless as to HOW Hashems’ “knowing” that someone would not turn out righteous, and will therefore not be deserving of the Ultimate Good; this knowing does not take away his free will to act as he wishes.November 12, 2018 5:11 am at 5:11 am #1621236Avi KParticipant
A syllogism reaches a conclusion. It does not pose a question. One of the valid forms is: All P are M. Some S are not M. Therefore, Some S are not P. In the terms of this discussion, All of Hashem’s creatures are recipients of Hashem’s goodness. Some people are not recipients of Hashem’s goodness. Therefor some people are not Hashem’s creatures. This, in fact, is the root of theological dualism.
You are √2 contends that being that the conclusion is incorrect something other than the major premise is incorrect, which is not logical. It is also not what √2 is contending. Rather √2 contends that we cannot know why Hashem created the world and thus sidesteps the question.
However, the answer is that we do not know what is ultimate good. For example, if a rasha dies young he does not further dirty his soul. It may even be an atonement. Moreover, if a person dies before his time because of some decree on the public or misuse of free choice he might get another chance by coming back.January 11, 2019 7:28 am at 7:28 am #1660915
shuv matzasi this exact question in shu”t radvaz chelek 5 siman 89. If anyone can explain his answer to me, I’ll be very grateful.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.