January 8, 2012 3:53 am at 3:53 am #601534
I was looking to do something nice for my kids when they have off from school.
I heard about a caterer that booked a block of rooms in a hotel near some attractions and is arranging for all of the meals and rented another room for minyanim. The caterer is arranging for a sefer torah, a place to lights shabbos candles etc…
I was thinking about booking my own room directly from the hotel and taking care of my own food etc, figuring why should I pay more to the caterer and I’ll still have a minyan to daven with.
Am I wrong for doing this? Can the caterer keep me from joining the minyan? Am I possibly stealing?January 8, 2012 5:28 am at 5:28 am #842395
Am I wrong for doing this?
It doesn’t pass my smell test.
Can the caterer keep me from joining the minyan?
I’d imagine that the room booked for minyanim is his to decide who is allowed in.
Am I possibly stealing?
I don’t know.
That being said, If I was at a hotel and learned that there was a private minyan, I would attempt to join.January 8, 2012 5:32 am at 5:32 am #842396
I don’t know why he would not let you join if you are there anyways.January 8, 2012 5:42 am at 5:42 am #842397grafpatotskyParticipant
where is this place??January 8, 2012 6:02 am at 6:02 am #842398
Bowwow, obviously the purpose of the Caterer is to book this program to make money. If people go to the hotel without booking through him and try to use his “accommodations” anyway, that would be infringing and imposing on him to cheat him out of his profit.
He would have a right to block you from the minyan since he has to pay for the rental of the room for each minyan, as well as the seforim, siddurim and sefer Torah. You are not talking about a local shul that is there whether this group and you come or not. The hotel does NOT give it to him for free. Every person in the program is paying for the use of the room for the minyanim within the fee for the program. Why do you think you have the right to infringe on their program and daven in their minyan for free?
So if this is your intention, the right thing to do is to call the caterer and ask him if that would be ok with him.January 8, 2012 6:03 am at 6:03 am #842399
That being said, If I was at a hotel and learned that there was a private minyan, I would attempt to join.
That’s not the same as taking advantage of the caterer’s investment and intentionally booking where he booked a bunch of rooms.January 8, 2012 6:17 am at 6:17 am #842400
Don’t take my quote out of context and then attack me for it.January 8, 2012 7:24 am at 7:24 am #842401
It don’t sound kosher to me. I agree with Aries’ sentiments. You may want to contact the caterer and ask if he is ok with you paying a smaller amount for only benefitting from the minyan etc. I am willing to bet that he can get you a room for the same price as you would get on your own since he is doing this a s a group, and he would make a profit. You can also ask him if you can pay per meal should you change your mind and decide you are sick of tuna sandwiches. Enjoy your vacation- and if you don’t mind please tell me where this is-I’m looking for a place to take my family.January 8, 2012 11:51 am at 11:51 am #842402ToiParticipant
if you wouldnt go for the money hes charging then hes not losing your business, he never couldve had it. that said, maybe pay him a fee to join the minyan.January 8, 2012 12:06 pm at 12:06 pm #842403mommamia22Participant
I agree with Aries.
Contact the caterer and clear it with them first.January 8, 2012 12:34 pm at 12:34 pm #842404
Ask a Rav, this might be a case of zeh nehneh vleh lo chaser. Surely the caterer is aware that this is not the only hotel in this vacation area and there is probably a chabad house within a reasonable distance from the vacation area.
Personally, I don’t look for minyanim near a vacation area, I look for vacation area near minyan so I don’t come across this problem, ever.January 8, 2012 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #842405popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Why don’t you call the caterer and ask what rate he will give you if you don’t include the meals? Could be he’ll be happy to give a cheaper rate, and it will likely be competitive with what the hotel is quoting you.
Alternatively, stay by a different hotel which is close by.
Personally, I don’t look for minyanim near a vacation area, I look for vacation area near minyan so I don’t come across this problem, ever.
Me too. I look for a vacation area that is NOT near a minyan, so I don’t come across this problem, ever.
But once, I was backpacking in Wyoming, and we found out about this chassidishe family that had rented a vacation home nearby in Montana, and was willing to put us up for shabbos and we’d make their minyan.
So we did that- shabbos in Montana with chassidim from Monsey beats shabbos in a cheap motel eating salami anyday. I think this was my only time eating tzibbilis mit ayer or whatever that is called.
So, L, if you or your family read this site- you know I’m talking about you. Thanks again.January 8, 2012 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #842406
Don’t take my quote out of context and then attack me for it.
I wasn’t attacking you, I was agreeing with you.
Alternatively, stay by a different hotel which is close by.
Why is that any different than staying in the same hotel?January 8, 2012 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #842407soliekMember
i like cookies.January 8, 2012 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #842408
this might be a case of zeh nehneh vleh lo chaser
One could make the same argument for copying CDs (IIRC, we’re in agreement that it’s wrong).
Zeh nehneh v’zeh lo chaser is not necessarily a heter, it’s a p’tur from payment.January 8, 2012 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #842409
Yes, it is a ptur, so no need to pay if you also vacation in the area. The caterer is not booking exclusive rights to the vacation area, is he?January 8, 2012 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #842410
Toi and apy are correct that this is a case of zeh nehneh vzeh lo chaser and is entirely mutter (assuming the OP would not have bought a room through the caterer in any circumstance.)
DY, ZNVZLC may be a ptur and not always be a heter but that is more relevant to a case where a person is actually using someone else’s property. In this case the OP is not even using the caterer’s property!January 8, 2012 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #842411
As an aside, ZNVZLC would in fact apply to copying music in a case where the person would certainly not have otherwise purchased it.January 8, 2012 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #842412
apushatayid, no but he is booking exclusive rights to the room the minyan is being held in.January 8, 2012 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #842413
Right, so the caterer can prevent him from entering the minyan (assuming there’s no issur to stop someone from coming to your minyan.) So what’s the concern? It’s up to the caterer whether to allow him to enter the minyan. If he allows it, there is nothing untoward.January 8, 2012 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #842414DaasYochidMember
I didn’t mean it should be assur, I’m just not sure it’s yashrus.January 8, 2012 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #842415
I called the hotel to ask if they have any rooms that have manual locks as opposed to the electronic cards. They told me that they do have rooms like those, but that they have all been blocked out for an exclusive group and that I could call the organizing group myself.
I asked if I booked my own room and figured out my own way to get around the locks if I would be able to join this groups activities.
The desk clerk very politely transferred me to the banquet manager who told me that they had been told by the group manager that a member of the hotel staff should have a list of the participants and only allow entry to guests registered with the group to any group rooms.
Is the caterer right? Does this say anything about his kashrus that he would deny people access to a minyan? I have yartzeit that shabbos and really need maftir and an amud to daven by.
Should I call the Rav Hamachshir?January 8, 2012 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #842416
sushe – I agree with you. If the caterer didn’t want such people joining, he could rent out the whole hotel.January 8, 2012 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #842417
bowwow – What does the rav hamachsir of the food have to do with the middos of the caterer?January 8, 2012 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #842418
sushi – And so he did, (as bowwow mentioned)January 8, 2012 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #842419
Looks like the caterer IS doing his best to ensure all bookings come through him. He might be makpid on you coming to his minyan as an unpaid guest. You should probably call him.January 8, 2012 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #842420
I have yartzeit that shabbos and really need maftir and an amud to daven by.
No, you don’t need maftir. The gabbai can give you whichever of the 11 aliyos he chooses to give you (depending on your yichus).January 8, 2012 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #842421
What does it say about the caterer if he wouldn’t allow someone to daven at a minyan? Would you trust that persons’ kashrus?January 8, 2012 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #842422
Bowwow, lets get this straight. YOU are planning to go somewhere on vacation that does NOT have a minyan. You are only planning to go there because there is a caterer who happens to be making a program there for the benefit of people like you who want to take their kids on vacation during school break. Obviously a caterer has a right to make a parnasah, so he works out all the details so that people like you can enjoy a nice vacation with their children and not have to worry about kosher food, minyan and “Shabbos Locks”. He does all the research and planning, having found this particular hotel with Shabbos locks, etc.
Now YOU want to go on his back, avoid his program so you don’t have to pay him and allow him to make his parnasah, cut him out of his own deal, try an get a room in the same hotel, and use HIS minyan. Hearing that the rooms will be available only to the people who register and pay for the program, since many people think like you and try to cheat the caterer of such programs, you are now thinking of calling the RAV Hamachshir because you feel he is NOT KOSHER enough if he blocks you from a minyan. You justify this by the fact that you are a chiyuv.
So here is MY take on it. Since you are a chiyuv and you need a minyan for Shabbos, YOU should find someplace to go with your family where there is a local minyan so you don’t have a problem. On the other hand, you can pay a little more, join a program at a place the kids will have a good time, your wife will not have to worry about food, and you will not have worry about a minyan. It would seem to me that YOU are going about this backwards.January 9, 2012 12:07 am at 12:07 am #842423lesschumrasParticipant
I don’t understand bowwow. The caterer is providing a service that you feel you’re entitled to without paying for it. It seems to me that if you need the amid you hdoed it saypave two choices: pay to join the group or stay home. It’s your problem, not his.January 9, 2012 12:12 am at 12:12 am #842424
bowwow – Thats why you have a mashgiach, not to rely on the caterers kashrus alone.January 9, 2012 12:55 am at 12:55 am #842425
I called the caterer and he basically called me a ganif and hung up on me.
I’m going to book my rooms and go anyway. I’ll just get to whatever room the minyan will be in early enough and try to grab the amud.January 9, 2012 1:56 am at 1:56 am #842426DoswinMember
Bowwow is putting us all on.January 9, 2012 2:22 am at 2:22 am #842427
Excuse me Doswin? If I really wanted to start a phony thread I would start one about Lakewood unplugging the freezer and how now the shidduch crisis will be solved.January 9, 2012 2:36 am at 2:36 am #842428
bowwow – Make sure to bring your own “clean” linen, I heard this hotel doesn’t change it after each use.January 9, 2012 2:36 am at 2:36 am #8424292qwertyParticipant
I think you are right but it’s just too annoying to hear someone talk like that.January 9, 2012 3:13 am at 3:13 am #842430adamsParticipant
I also thinks it’s probably a wind-up, but if not, Bowwow is trying to live beyond his means. this is what it costs. You want to get it for less and this makes you a ‘schnorrer’.
I was a guest once at the Homowack and after Shule, they announced ‘everyone is invited to the Kiddush’. I was thinking that means someone could stay at a cheap motel nearby and come for the davening and get the basically lunch for free.
But here it’s a much different story. the caterer invests heavily in putting together the program, advertising etc. and has to sell a certain number of rooms etc.
You can certainly ask if you can join the minyanim, but his not allowing it does not mean anything about his Kashrus.
You want something that others have to pay for, you want it for free, instead of making a vacation that you can afford, that is the ugly part of this story if it’s true.January 9, 2012 4:35 am at 4:35 am #842431
adams, and the worst part is he is teaching this to his children.January 9, 2012 4:38 am at 4:38 am #842432
Why worry about his kashrus-you don’t plan on eating there?
oh, I get it, it’s litoeles harabbim-you’re worried about others!
you’re right no one should go.
But wait, what about minyan?
simple-organize a group, caterer, safer torah, baal korah pay for it…
and let everyone join your minyan for free.
Sorry Bowwow you’re barking up the wrong tree.January 9, 2012 4:40 am at 4:40 am #842433
“I’ll just get to whatever room the minyan will be in early enough and try to grab the amud.”
I’m sure your loved one will have a tremendous aliyah.
I hope this is a troll, and you’re pulling our leg.January 9, 2012 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #842434
Touche on the linen remark. (Although I have seen advertisements for a very thin sleeping bag type item for people who frequently travel and are concerned about the hotel linen)January 9, 2012 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #842435
Thank you everybody for your feedback. The scenario I presented is actually an argument I had with someone over Shabbos. In my opinion he is wrong and I wanted to get the opinions of the CR membership.
The only point I made up was the Yartzeit argument. I thought it might add a twist.
FYI- I asked my Rov and he said that Halachically you can not remove or stop someone from davening with a minyan unless they are disrupting the minyan. However, he said it is not so pashut that one can just join the minyan.January 9, 2012 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #842436
Bowwow, it seems that the caterer has a Rav of his own. You cannot stop someone from davening with a minyan, however you can stop someone from entering a Private room for “members of the program” exclusively.January 9, 2012 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #842438
aries- I’m sure the caterer has a Rav of his own (everyone should have their own Rav that they rely on).
I don’t have a problem with the caterer trying to stop people from entering the private room, Especially in this situation where the person in question is voluntarilly putting himself in a position where he would have no access to a minyan without this group being in the hotel.
In extenuating circumstances, for example, if this hotel happens to be near a hospital and a man who’s wife is in the hospital finds out about the minyan it would just be decent for the caterer to let him daven there.
How the caterer acts has no bearing at all on his kashrus. He is doing this for a parnossa, not a community service.January 9, 2012 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #842439adamsParticipant
If you are asking in Mitzius, you can probably do what you want to do in Aruba. I beleive that many minyanim are there and they won’t mind during Yeshiva break week.
Also I would check with the Syrian community in Brooklyn, they have a few ‘travelling Torahs’ for this purpose and you might find out where they are that week. I found a group once on a cruise (not Kosher cruise but had Kosher meals available).January 9, 2012 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #842440
Bowwow, under your new scenario where someone did NOT plan on cheating the caterer out of his profit, I am sure the caterer would NOT have a problem letting such a person join his minyan. For instance if someone was traveling to another town and stopped at the hotel on their way because they heard there was a program there and they can chap a minyan, I doubt the caterer or program director would deny them.
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