April 3, 2019 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #1708919
laskern – ” if the actions refllect the mitzva like drinking excessively. no kavono is required.”
That is a deep concept (maybe a choshev person told it to you) and I will illustrate it with the mitzva of kiddush Hashem.
When a person dies al kiddush Hashem, when is the mitzvah done? When he is dead. But a dead person cannot do a mitzvah?! Therefore, the lead up to the death – that is the mitzvah which completes at death (as you wrote: that is the tzuras hamitzvah).
Nimshal: Ad dlo yada is done when a person is k’shikrus Lot, he canot have kavana, he is in a state that he cannot do mitzvos (like being dead), so when is the mitzvah done? The lead up to the ad dlo yada which is completed upon being totally shikur. That is the tzura of this mitzva.April 4, 2019 9:41 am at 9:41 am #1709188
RG, You praise yourself how learned you are by finishing shas and SA but maybe you should learn MB first SA O”CH (60,10) from the Chayeh Adam. The mitzva is drinking and not being drunk until you come to the level of ad the dlo yada. Similarly, the mitzva is to sacrifice yourself al kiddush Hashem. On the results you have no control over, so it cannot be a mitzva.April 4, 2019 10:41 am at 10:41 am #1709204
RG, I gave you a reference. The chazal wanted to continue doing the mitzva until he falls asleep. Even though he theoretically performed the mitzva but the part to fall asleep he was not mikayem, so he still has an oibligation to fulfill this. How does he fulfill it, by repeating the mitzva.April 5, 2019 9:35 am at 9:35 am #1709769
laskern – was avrohom mekayim the mitzvah of kiddush Hashem in Ur Kasdim when Nimrod threw him in the fiery furnace? He survived.
We must must assume (since avrohom – avrom at the time) kept all the mitzvos includiong d’rabbonon), we must assume he made a brocha al kiddush Hashem – and now he survived, was it abrocha l’vatala?
Your “mehalech” (approach) by ad dlo yada is that the mitzvah is only accomplished/completed when s/he falls asleep, so by kiddush Hashem it would only be completed when he dies.
Just as by ad dlo yada, you wrote “the part to fall asleep he was not mikayem’ likewise you must hold that Avrohom/Avrom was not mikayem the part of kiddush Hashem of dying.
Really?!April 5, 2019 10:33 am at 10:33 am #1709839
Look at the reply #1709188 where I said the opposite, read it carefully, He has no control over the outcome, so it cannot be a mitzva, but he has control over drinking. Avraham was mekaim the mitzva of kiddush Hashem, whether he died or not is out of his conrol. The comparison anyway is not good because he is not mechuyav to repeat it until he dies.April 5, 2019 12:08 pm at 12:08 pm #1709858
The more I think about it, the more it looks to me that drinking and telling about yetzias mitzraim are not alike.
When it comes to drinking, there is no mitzva in drinking only. but to be intoxicated that we fall asleep, whereas by telling about yetzias mitzraim, the falling asleep is a measurement in the extension of the mitzva, so you are mekaim the mitzva with small amount but continue doing it until falling asleep.April 5, 2019 12:09 pm at 12:09 pm #1709859
Compare mitzva to aveira: When is a person a rotzayach (murderer) – when he shechts a person or moments later at yetzias neshama?
Nafka mina: when does he have a din of rotzayach? When he does the shechita of a fellow yid, or whenthe yid actually does?
Suppose a person places dough into an oven or a pot of uncooked food on a flame on shabbos – when is he a mechalel shabbos and hence possol l’eidus: at the time of placing the food into oven, or when it is partially baked/cooked?
The mitzva of ad dlo yada components of drinking is like the component of placing food on fire on shabbos. That is not the mitzva or issur. It is a hechsher mitzva/aveira. The mitzva/aveira crystalizes when he reaches ad dlo yada/bishul. That is when he is mikayem the mitzva or aveira and hence only then by the avaira possul l’aidus.
You understand?April 5, 2019 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #1709903
There is a difference between planting and cooking. Planting he is chayev when he places the seed in the ground whereas cooking he can remove it before it is cooked and not be chayev. See Tosfas Shabbos (4,1) beginning words Kodem.April 5, 2019 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #1710001
Who is talking about planting? Of course planting is different!
I only used specific examples of cooking/baking on shabbos (and murder).April 5, 2019 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #1710023
It is not of course. Planting has to create roots but many hold that it happens right away.April 5, 2019 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #1710034
Lifting up from the ground a potted plant that has a hole in the bottom – is considered uprooting the plant from it’s source (it gets “yenika” from ground)…but this is not part of the discussion here.April 10, 2019 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #1713203
Who holds that the melacha of planting on shabbos requires “Planting has to create roots “? ?? You wrote that “Planting has to create roots but many hold that it happens right away.”, so is there ANYONE that holds you are not oiver on planting on shabbos until it grows roots???
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