In the Purim Spirit: Women are required to Ad dlo yada 😂🤣😂🤣

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  • #1693297

    YaishMeforshim
    Participant

    Reb – I can’t tell if you’re legitimately trying to make an argument or if you’re just purposely firing out non -sequiturs to get a response. There is clearly a difference between the mitzva of Daled Kosos and the mitzva of Ad DeLo Yada. The kiyyum hamitzva for daled kosos is fulfilled through the drinking, not the resulting (I should say rarely resulting) intoxication. Obviously there would be no reason to patur women from a mitzva which involves drinking possibly intoxicating beverages in which the mitzva is simply to drink and not to get drunk. I can’t remember the last time I heard of a woman getting drunk from the Arba Kosos and it can be easily avoided. Conversely, the mitzva of Ad Delo Yada is to GET DRUNK. This is clearly a violation of one of the fundamental qualities of a woman’s avoda and is therefore not practiced.

    #1693319

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Captain Bump, it’s simple. Women should get together in groups. Half should get drunk at a time while the other half stand guard.

    #1693321

    YM – “to become heavily intoxicated to the point of Ad Delo Yada would be a gross violation of a [Jew’s] tafkid to be [aware of Hashem at all times] and an explicit divergence from hashkafas HaTora.”

    I might a slight change in your point to show that it applies to both males and females.

    Why would you target females when the logic is applicable to males?

    Yet, Chazal were michayiv ad dlo yada. What makes you sure they excluded women???

    #1693335

    reb. once again you obviously overlooking the obvious if the husband is not home he would have to leave wine or challos for his wife to make her own kiddush.

    #1693351

    places
    Participant

    My father holds that the woman should do the rema’s shita.
    they drink 2 cups and take a nap

    #1693354

    sifsei chachamim
    Participant

    I don’t understand how a Yid can take a nap on Purim. Meileh if you fell asleep from drunkenness, it’s an O’nes, But to do so l’chatchila?!
    We try to be mekayem mitzvas lulav with the greatest hiddur, and we are machmir on Pesach kala kachamurah. But suddenly when it comes to Purim, after we made sure we heard every single word of the megillah, and we gave tzdakah to many many ani’yim, suddenly we can rely on the most meikil shita in achronim.

    Yidden! Gevald! The forth mitzvah of Purim isn’t a second tier mitzvah.

    #1693363

    Can’t find Mrs Joseph’s sefer “l’chol hadeios.”

    Is the mechaber Rabbos Machshovos?

    #1693366

    Yaish, wine is wine. Drinking is drinking. Of course at different times we drink wine for diffrent reasons. We make kiddush on wine – women are michuyav. We drink daled kossos – women are michuyav. Simchas yom tov al hayayin – women are michuyev. If chazal felt a danger or a reason to forbid women from drinking, they would have. We can make a lomdes to distinguish this wine from that wine and this drinking from that drinking, but either women can or can’t drink, either they should or shouldn’t…one revi’is is meshaker (according to halacha)…if ess past nisht for women to be drunk – does it pas for men?! If it is not torahdig for women, is it torah=dig for men? Be honest – you are against the evil of drinking, you have a bias, but Chazal aren;t agreeing that it is evil, adarabah, they mandated it. So why do you think they were only mechatyev men>! Logically, it applies also to women!

    #1693369

    The answer is: Men don’t want to share the scotch with their wives and daughters. Al tachzik tova l’atzmecha.

    #1693373

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “But suddenly when it comes to Purim, after we made sure we heard every single word of the megillah, and we gave tzdakah to many many ani’yim, suddenly we can rely on the most meikil shita in achronim.”

    A mitzvah can’t be done b’simchah unless there are at least a thousand MO people telling you it’s wrong. It just keeps the balance in teh world. It’s all necessary.

    #1693390

    MalachOfCholent
    Participant

    rebbitzin-women are not mechuyav in 4 cups of wine-it can be grape juice too, i have yet toi meet a women who drank enough wine to get drunk at the seder, even most men don’t get drunk.

    #1693403

    Malach – do you know why on Simchas Torah the birkas Cohanim is in shachris and not the regular place in Mussaf?

    Because a kohen that made kiddush on ONE cup of wine is considered shikkur and cannot duchan.

    Multiply that by dalad kossos and you have very intoxicated kohen.

    In gemara’s times they did not have Rashi Light wine. The wine was as strong as scotch. Yet women were michuyav in daled kossos and it was not shouted down as un-tznius or anti Torah. True there were no Pessach hotels but people did invite “kol dichfin” to the seder. It wasn’t just family…

    #1693432

    The little I know
    Participant

    Sifsei:

    You wrote: “But suddenly when it comes to Purim, after we made sure we heard every single word of the megillah, and we gave tzdakah to many many ani’yim, suddenly we can rely on the most meikil shita in achronim.”

    That’s completely ridiculous, and I would hope you have the intellect to understand that. You have fabricated your own standard, and based on that, you are judging the Ramo, the Mishnah Berurah, and countless other poskim from many generations to be “meikil”? They are not addressing kulah or chumroh, just the etzem hadin. You are a mechutzaf for calling them meikil. You are free to engage in the dialogue about what the chiyuv of ad delo yoda is, and you can quote whomever you wish. These are not Shu”t that are engaging in pilpul to respond to a questioner. These are the poskim that lead Klal Yisroel explaining to us what the halacha entails. And when they tell us that it is preferred to sleep, that’s halacha, not kuloh. Yes, there were poskim who stated differently. This is a disagreement in halacha. Not kuloh or chumroh.

    #1693444

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Nowadays, women can usually get drunk safely, but most have occasional reasons not to drink. The only reason some have a minhag that women don’t drink is so that women get to keep their privacy when they aren’t allowed to drink.

    #1693447

    MalachOfCholent
    Participant

    why do i find it hard toi believe you?

    #1693448

    A mitzvah can’t be done b’simchah unless there are at least a thousand MO people telling you it’s wrong. It just keeps the balance in the world. It’s all necessary.

    Maskim

    #1693450

    MalachOfCholent
    Participant

    Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname:

    Malach – do you know why on Simchas Torah the birkas Cohanim is in shachris and not the regular place in Mussaf?

    Because a kohen that made kiddush on ONE cup of wine is considered shikkur and cannot duchan.

    Multiply that by dalad kossos and you have very intoxicated kohen.

    In gemara’s times they did not have Rashi Light wine. The wine was as strong as scotch. Yet women were michuyav in daled kossos and it was not shouted down as un-tznius or anti Torah. True there were no Pessach hotels but people did invite “kol dichfin” to the seder. It wasn’t just family…
    -if your right then it still couldnt have been enough for ad delo yada since then needed to be seriously into the haggadah/seder and conducting it. they couldn’t have done it in a drunken state the way you see people on purim.
    they were deffinitly better at those mitzvos than us and we don’t see any mention of women drinking on purim.

    #1693451

    sifsei chachamim
    Participant

    Berliner: you made me laugh, shkoach.

    Of course they are meikil. What ever happened to hiddur mitzvah?

    #1693645

    SLeeping is just one way of being ad dlo yada. Someone who uses medical marijuana (or other narcotics) might also reach ad dlo yada that way. My kasha is, if MITZVOS TZRICHOS KAVANA, how does he and she have the proper kavana to be yotzeh the mitzva of ad dlo yada when asleep? Bi’shlomo when drinking , until he or she reaches shikrus Lot (of not knowing anything what is happening) there is “some ” kavana ability – therefore one can bentch after the seudah even in a state of ad dlo yada…but just as one canot bentch while in a state of sleep, how can one have kavonas hamitzvah of ad dlo yada while sleeping?!

    #1693651

    Meno
    Participant

    Rebbetzingoldennosepicker,

    My kasha is, if MITZVOS TZRICHOS KAVANA, how does he and she have the proper kavana to be yotzeh the mitzva of ad dlo yada when asleep?

    Even if you go to sleep, the maiseh mitzvah is still the drinking. Ad d’lo yoda is the shiur to be m’kayem the mitzvah. Going to sleep is just a heiche timtzi [insert thumb-swoop here] to reach that shiur (albeit not in the most mehudardike way). Therefore you only need kavanah for the drinking itself, not the sleeping.

    Good kashe though.

    #1693679

    Meno – you say that drinking is the mayseh hamitzvah and ad dlo yada is the shiyur, no, adaraba:

    Drinking is not the mayseh hamitzvah but only a hecher to the mitzvah of “libsumay b’purya”.,

    The tzura (element) of this “libsumay b’puya” mitzva is “ad dlo yada”.

    in other words, the mayseh hamitzva is “libsumay b’purya” and the kiyum hamitzva is when he reaches the goal of ad dlo yada.

    The cheftza of the mitzva is the drinking and the gavrah is being drunk.

    #1693662

    Good kashe though

    Which recipe did you use for the kasha?

    #1693665

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I like how “ad-dlo-yada has become a verb, as in “required to ad-dlo-yada”.

    #1693673

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    The hiddur mitzvah is with heroin.

    #1693702

    So should any heroine drink?

    #1693714

    pushata – I like how “ad-dlo-yada has become a verb, as in “required to ad-dlo-yada”

    By verb do you mean “peulas hamitzva”, like the blowing of the shofar or the reading of megilah?

    Instead of the peulas hamitzvah, (which is the drinking) it might be the kiyum hamitzvah (being drunk).

    #1693722

    eli lev
    Participant

    women are almost mikayem “d’lo yodah a whole yr. bec. “daaton kalos”

    #1693723

    eli lev
    Participant

    @ Nevlle…. not funny.

    #1693755

    sifsei chachamim
    Participant

    מצוות אינן צריכים כוונה כשיש הנאה לגוף

    #1693757

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    Someone related that the word יין (wine) has the same numerical value as the word לקח (cake). Someone asked “how is this possible, יין has the numerical value of 70 and לקח has the numerical value of 138?
    He answered “for this problem there is a sim-
    ple solution, have more ייןand if two times יין
    comes out to be more than  לקח , then take another piece of לקח .
    If two times  לקח is more than two times יין and even more than three times יין . Then you have to have so much יין and so much  לקח that either one of the two occur: Either this problem will “work out” mathematically, or you will fulfill the
    obligation of Purim to reach the limit of עד שלא ידע!
    Eventually he will not be able to tell the differ-
    ence between “cursed is Haman and blessed is
    Mordechai.” Certainly he will not be able to tell
    the difference if יין is the numerical value of  לקח !

    #1694349

    sifsei chachamim
    Participant

    @rebitzin if you are correct that the mitzvah is being drunk then we have the shitta of minchas chinuch that when a mitzvah is the תוצאה and not the פעולה it doesn’t need kavanah. (מצוות פו”ר)

    But I think you are wrong. Ad delo yada is the shiur of the mitzvah not the kiyum. And the reason might be the Ran who says הנאה לגוף.

    #1694353

    apushatayid
    Participant

    so, now that “ad-dlo-yada” is a verb is ad, bichlal or not.

    #1694395

    If the halacha is מצוות אינן צריכים כוונה כשיש הנאה לגוף then why do we say before we eat the yummy food on shabbos “L’kovod shabbos kodesh”? Also, many people do not enjoy the drinking itself (it tastes awful!0 but only enjoy the effect. So there is no הנאה לגוף in the drinking which some claim is the asiyas ma’aseh hamitzvah when you drink the awful bitter scotch as avodas hashem, …and by the time you are drunk,which is the kiyum hamitzva, you no longer have kavanah or conscious of the הנאה לגוף in your intoxicated state of shikrus. The lomdos is complex. Reb Fietel Fligelfees said a shiyur last purim but half way through the Rosh Yeshiva Reb Getzel Hakachinik shlogged him up or maybe simply threw up. The yeshiva was left with a groiseh tzorich iyun and a mop up job.

    #1694419

    sifsei chachamim
    Participant

    That’s the Halacha. Matza is considered הנאה לגוף even if you don’t like it. (בלע מצה יצה מרור לא יצה)
    Of course you are supposed to have kavanah the question is whether you can be yotzeh without it.
    The entire drinking is one hemshech of kiyum hamitzva. There isn’t one gulp that takes you over the top.
    The lomdus isn’t too complicated, if you need help ask the Lakewood bochrim that come to you’re shabbos meal.

    (Btw the Ran is in RH daf 7)

    #1694431

    During the seudah, after emptying a couple of bottles, a guest isn’t feeling wel and goes to the bathroom. We hear loud noises and after a long while he comes out. My husband jokingly asked him what he was doing for so long and he said, “Chazara”. The eaten meal and drinks were all over the floor. A short time later he gets up again. My husband asks him what is he is doing now? He answers, “Yaleh V’yovo”. ..and that’s when I started drinking ad dlo yada.

    #1694805

    sifsei chachamim
    Participant

    Maybe I should come to your Purim seuda. Ubifrat that there can be side benefits.

    #1695120

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    The harrowing heroine with hair in a heron ate herring with heroin on Purim.

    #1695304

    apushatayid
    Participant

    bein hazmanim started early for some this year.

    #1698852

    All mitzvos we train children when they reach the age of chinuch for that mitzvah.

    At what age is a child michuyev mitzad chinuch to do the chiyuv of Ad Dlo Yada?

    #1699370

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Once the child is three, it is time to start giving him grape juice on Purim.

    #1699427

    …and from grape juice to wine to scotch, kshem shenichnas l’grape case, kein yi’kones l’nichnas yayim…

    but seriously, the kid got wine at his bris, now at 3 he only gets grape juice????

    #1699437

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    From grape juice to wine to brandy. By his bris, he got little wine. When he’s older, he has to practice drinking extra on Purim, so you can’t give wine because that amount is only safe in grape juice. Also, “he” is sometimes used as a gender neutral pronoun because the English language doesn’t have one.

    #1707503

    BneiBarakObama
    Participant

    melamdah tiflus

    #1708604

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Sifsei Chachomim, the opposite is said, every drink is a new chiyuv until he falls asleep. Similarly, there is a new chiyuv for sippur yetzias mitzraim until he falls asleep.

    #1708608

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    R. G. Drinking on purim is derabonon which does not need kavono.

    #1708621

    BneiBarakO – melamedah tiflus?! I learned daf yomi with my husband (which I recommend to all couples – excellent quality time to spend together working thru the daf) and was at last siyum hashas as a mesayem!

    #1708641

    laskern – “there is a new chiyuv for sippur yetzias mitzraim until he falls asleep.”

    A new “chiyuv”? Chiyuv mean obligation. The loshon hamishna is “v’kol hamarbeh l’saper b’yetzias mitzrayim HARAY ZEH MESHUBACH”!

    Meshubach means it is a hiddur – not a chiyuv.

    #1708656

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Even if say that derabonon needs kavono lekatchila, but if the actions refllect the mitzva like drinking excessively. no kavono is required.

    #1708787

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    RG, why don’t you ask your question on SA O”CH (481,2), since you said you finished it, where it says there is a chiyuv to tell about yetzias mitzraim until falling asleep? The sefer Minchas Chen on the Hagadah explains that you have performed the mitzva with a little but your still have a new chiyuv to tell again until you fall asleep.

    #1708918

    I am not sure of your definition of word “chiyuv”. To me, chiyuv means “obligation”, like putting on tefillin is a chiyuv once a day. To continue wearing tefillin all day (as Yidden did in ancient times) or to put them on again and again is “bonus” mitzvos – or, Harei zeh meshubach.

    Once a person was yotzeh the chiyuv of sipur yetzias mitzrayim, his obligtion/chiyuv was fulfilled, but when he continues to be “marbeh l’saper” on his the mishna states “harei zeh meshubach” – which to me means, he did hiddur or an addition on the chiyuv (which he already completed earlier).

    Are you saying something else?

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