Women Davening

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  • This topic contains 31 replies, has 17 voices, and was last updated by  DrYidd 1 month ago.
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  • #1665933

    Maggid of Pinsk
    Participant

    My wife has recently started turning up to shacharis after borchu. What should I say/do to her to try and bring her back on the derech hayoshor?!
    Thank you so much in advance for your helpful suggestions!

    #1666097

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Switch to a hashkoma davening so that when she turns up, they’re already halfway through the leining.

    #1666131

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    To Avram: How does that solve the Magid’s problem?? He is obviously dealing with a complex “relationship” issues which has caused him great suffering and is threatening his reputation among the other daveners who might suspend him from the Kiddush club or invoke other sanctions.

    As a starter, remember the origins and current role of hashkama minyanim. Most were established by frum shuls back in the early 1900s for the poor “greeners” who had to work on Shabbos at low-skilled factory jobs and risked losing those jobs (and their livelihood) if they arrived late to work (at a time that a six-day workweek was the norm). Over the decades they evolved so that in many cases the husband will attend the hashkama minyan and then the wife (who was watching the yinglach) could occasionally attend the regular shacharit service. Most importantly, the hashkamah minyan in many shuls is held in a smaller room or “chapel” w/o a mechitzah so if the poor Magid’s wife showed up for the early minyan, it would create total chaos and prompt another question here in the CR as to what to do when there is no varbeshe section?

    #1666151

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Maggid,
    Consider yourself lucky.
    There are a few young husbands in my neighborhood who show up at the 2nd Yekum Purkan.

    #1666155

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Gadolhadorah,

    “How does that solve the Magid’s problem??”

    Easy. He’s upset that his wife is “turning up” too early in the davening, so I proposed a solution where she does not have to alter her arrival time, but now arrives at the proper time he thinks a woman should arrive.

    “He is obviously dealing with a complex “relationship” issues”

    I solved the problem he presented to the CR. Let’s not go out looking for more problems.

    #1666171

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    GH: I took it that the OP was upset that his wife was showing up later then used to not earlier.

    #1666176

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    As a starter, remember the origins and current role of hashkama minyanim.

    Current? I don’t know orthodox people still go to shul and work thereafter on shabbos!

    Additionally most shuls daven past סזק״ש according to the מג״א
    People who are מקפיד daven hashkama

    #1666200

    Joseph
    Participant

    She’s probably preparing the family meal, which is her primary duty. So she’s doing the right thing. Compliment her.

    #1666201

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    coffee addict,

    “Additionally most shuls daven past סזק״ש according to the מג״א
    People who are מקפיד daven hashkama”

    Or they make sure to say krias shema before the zman, like at the table on Friday night after dark.

    #1666377

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Avram in md,

    Or they make sure to say krias shema before the zman, like at the table on Friday night after dark.

    That works but it’s better to say בזמן during תפילה

    #1666400

    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Coffee addict, relax. It was worded clearly but he mrant the original role was to allow people to get to work and the current role is to allow the wife to go to the regular minyan

    #1666410

    MDG
    Participant

    Maybe I missing something, but I’m trying to understand the problem OP has.
    Is his wife showing up too early?
    Too late?
    Is even showing up the problem?
    ‏Is there a מחיצה?
    Why is he looking over there?

    #1666431

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Is his wife showing up too early?
    Too late?

    Yes

    Is even showing up the problem?

    Yes, after borchu.

    ‏Is there a מחיצה?

    Yes

    Why is he looking over there?

    He’s looking for his wife.

    (These questions remind me of the people who try to find the lomdus and farenfer all the stiros in Harry Potter)

    #1666435

    ZionGate
    Participant

    MDG,
    OP pulling legs here… Nothing wrong with a little fun.🤣

    #1666453

    ZionGate
    Participant

    …. And MDG…. Don’t get startled, but the saintly Maggid may be right here among us . Actually hiding from his metziyeh… Look closely , but be nonchalant about it..

    #1666464

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Aye, maggid’l , maggid’l…..
    Maaaaaaaaaaagid’l maggid’l…😉😉😉

    #1666787

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    He’s upset because his wife showed up at borchu but the toddler at korbonos.

    #1666945

    YankleCohen4
    Participant

    Everyone has to chill out and just wait for Mashiach to come

    #1667043

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    He’s upset because his wife showed up at borchu but the toddler at korbonos.

    Don’t you mean “He’s upset because his wife showed up at borchu but she comes at korbonos.“

    And finds him at the kiddush club

    #1667064

    laskern
    Participant

    The Kol Bo says that the Torah patters the women from time dependent mitzvos because their responsibility is towards their husband and family, so davening with a minyan was never their responsibility.

    #1667066

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    What are the rules in your shul with regard to women attending the Kiddush club if they arrive early for davening as in the the Magid’s sad tale? Do you need to have a mechitzah in the small room the gabbai has designated for the KC? Do you alternate and all the men go back in to the davening to hear the Rav’s dvar torah so the women can go in an get some hootch? There must be some clear guidelines for the womens’ Kiddush club operations.

    #1667130

    ZionGate
    Participant

    GH,
    The only guideline for women at any kiddush , bar mitzvah or sheva brochus that I’ve seen, are the ubiquitous liquirs of 100 flavors ; peach, mango, chocolate, watermelon, coffee, garlic, etc. .. . You know, ladies’ drinks. No bourbon, vodka, scotch to be displayed for the stronger gender..

    #1667138

    funnybone
    Participant

    Shes probably coming late becaise thats wht her mother did you need to have a serious conversation with your mil about how she raised her children.

    #1667141

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “peach, mango, chocolate, watermelon, coffee, garlic, etc.”

    Can you tell me where I can get my hands on some garlic-flavored liquor?

    #1667173

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Shes probably coming late becaise thats wht her mother did you need to have a serious conversation with your mil about how she raised her children.

    So true

    #1667177

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Neville,
    Re: garlic liquor
    Sold out, I was just told. The gabbai’s wife with the blue floppy shul hat is ordering again. Let’s be patient.

    #1667198

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    On a serious note, although it will upset some of the more machmir CR regulars, there are many MO shuls where women are now regular KC attendees with the local minhagim varying from shul to shul. And no, they don’t serve the gals flavored sugar syrup mixed with alcohol in lieu of real (big-boy) drinks….they imbibe the same stuff as the guys do with gusto..

    #1667210

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Gadol:
    Do they still have sugary, syrupy schnapps for guys like me who are… secure with our masculinity as we like to call it…?

    #1667346

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    On a serious note, although it will upset some of the more machmir CR regulars, there are many MO shuls where women are now regular KC attendees with the local minhagim varying from shul to shul. And no, they don’t serve the gals flavored sugar syrup mixed with alcohol in lieu of real (big-boy) drinks….they imbibe the same stuff as the guys do with gusto..

    I wouldn’t expect anything less (sadly)

    #1667355

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Moving even further off-topic, according to data from the national trade association for the liquor industry, the largest growth segment for the high end scotch, whiskey and clear spirits market are millennial women. Sadly, their data does not break out the growth rate among women of various religious backgrounds so we have no way of knowing if female Kiddush Club attendees (possibly including the Magidah of Pinsk) are part of that growth. Also, there is the additional factor of fewer Kiddush clubs holding forth during Hashkamah minyanim since most ehrliche yidden have some difficulty belting back a double scotch before they’ve had their leftover cholent and Corn Flakes for breakfast.

    #1667418

    DrYidd
    Participant

    for familial reasons i once davened at shirah chadashah. the first thing i noticed was a top to bottom mechitzah. the second was that prior to youth groups, the young urchins were mostly in the men’s section so their mothers can have proper kavanah. 🙂

    then again while only men had kohen and levi, the mother of the bar mitzvah had shilishi, unseen from the other side of the mechitzah, she stood next to table protruding on both sides of the mechitzah. 🙂

    #1667481

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Dr Yidd: Sounds remarkably egalitarian which will upsetting to most of the resident poskim.

    #1667487

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    It should bother you too

    #1667500

    funnybone
    Participant

    Dryidd: bothers me.

    #1667530

    DrYidd
    Participant

    it is avant-garde even for egalitarian minyanim. but the drasha by the rabbanit was superb; better than the vast majority of her male counterparts. you cannot expect less from the daughter of ,,,,,,,, 🙂

    shlishi for anyone, man or woman, who can identify the rabbanit and a shot of 25-year-old Macallan (after the derasha) 🙂 🙂

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