Women davening with a minyan

So why do most women if they go to shul is it only on shabbos and Yom tov? Do you think it’s because they have a family busy taking care of? There are many older women with all their children Boruch Hashem married that can go to daven with a minyan every day and answer all the chazzan that they can’t do davening privately at home.

Women aren’t part of a minyan and don’t have the same chiyuv mitzvah to daven at all. It would seem that more people saying amen and davening for a purpose and not just going to shul for feminist reasons helps.

Jude: It would be more compelling if you brought a S”A or Psak Halacha regarding women attending daily.

ubiq: Two minor points:

At a chasuna it’s usually difficult to have an area for a minyan where you can have a mechitza.

And, while it might involve less effort than taking care of multiple children, even after the children left the house the wife’s first obligation is to serve her husband. (That’s the reason she’s halachicly exempt from Kind Av V’Eim, while married, since she must serve her husband first.)

Coffee, it’s simple; we have a mesorah.

The sams gemara in sotah 22a contains an important yesod. It says that a person who is קרא ושנה, learned tanach and shas, but did not have a rebbe from whom he received a mesorah, is called an am haaretz. Says rav Hirsch, such a person might know halacha, but he won’t be able to tell when and how to apply various values in avodas Hashem and mussar.

This is why the mishnah says “lo am haaretz chosid” and not the seemingly more appropriate “lo am haaretz tzadik,” as a chosid is someone who goes beyond halacha, while a tzadik keeps the dinim; asks Rav Hirsch, why would a traditional am haaretz not he able to be a chosid – it should say tzadik! Since he doesn’t know halacha. Answers rav hirsch, we’re talking about the above.

That particular woman had zchusim, and in context, it was to show that not all women who daven a lot are immoral(a lot are, the gemara says, because they’re trying to hide their sinfulness).

But the gemara is not saying what a woman *should* do, just that she has more schar for walking, and that principle applies to a man as well, as codified in shu”a.

It’s not an ikkar for women to go to shul. They’re not going to be taken to task for it; most rebbetzin hardly ever go, especially by the litvishe. First things first; work on the basics of tznius in dreas, attitude and behavior, not being an azus panin, work on chessed, jealousy, lashon hora. A woman – and a man – have lifelong battles to work on before they begin taking on extras. Shul for a woman is like tikun chatzos for a man; great thing, but rather silly if he’s not able to keep the basics yet.

UJM

non of your minor points hold water

1) At a chasuna it’s usually difficult to have an area for a minyan where you can have a mechitza.

I’m not sure that an ad hoc minyan needs a mechitza, and even if want one EVERY chasuna Ive been to has had a mechitza, and even if for whatever reason that mechitza cant be used (band is noisy or something) ok so they dont daven stand quietly answer amen yehei shmei rabba

2) And, while it might involve less effort than taking care of multiple children, even after the children left the house the wife’s first obligation is to serve her husband. (That’s the reason she’s halachicly exempt from Kind Av V’Eim, while married, since she must serve her husband first.)

agree, I’m limiting my question to when she isnt engaged in prior commitments say Friday night the table is set, the food is warming why not go down the block to chap arein an amen yehei shmei rabba or 2

Avira, your pshat in the Gemoro in Sotah, as well as the דיוק you bring to support it, is wrong. See Rashi there and to Bovo Metzio 107a s.v. רבי יוחנן לטעמיה. We see from the גמרא in בבא מציעא that שכר פסיעות is a novel concept, so much so that Rav didn’t hold of it. R’ Yochanan heard it from the אלמנה and accepted it.

ubiq: Why would you say it doesn’t hold water? Shulchan Aruch paskens that a wife is exempt from Kibud Av V’Eim, which is not only a m’doraisa but is actually one of the Aseres Hadibros!, due to her obligations of serving her husband exempts her from her father and mother.

According to your line of thought, you should argue that she should still be chayiv in Kibud Av V’Eim when she isn’t serving her husband. Yet the Halacha is that she’s not.

(The husband’s obligations of Kibud Av V’Eim precedes his obligations to his wife.)

ujm
“Why would you say it doesn’t hold water?”

for several reasons here a re a few:

1) I dont understand the connection to kibud av, because she is patur in kibud av she should forgo the oppurtunity to be mevatel potentially 70 year bad gzar din? Again. I’m not saying she is chayav to go. But if she isnt doing anything why doesnt she go? I dont get the kibud av connection
2) Even if patur generally women I know do mitzvos they are patur from sukkah, Lulav shofar . (With a beracha). So ok they are “patur” from saying amen yehi shemie rabba becasue of some hekish? gezeira shava? Mah matzinu? to kibud av, why not do it anyway
3) If her husband isnt makpid she is chayav in kibud av
4) It doesnt answer why single/divorced women dont generally go

מטונך – rashi is much more meduyak like me. I didn’t say that we learn anything specific about women from the story, rather we see a new darga in kibul schar, and that’s exactly what Rashi says. He doesn’t say that we learn that there is schar pesios, rather that a person should be מטריח themselves.

And if it’s a machlokes discussed in the gemara, that means it was debated; the gemara’s discussions were between members of the yeshiva. The words the almana said were “הלא שכר פסיעות יש” – she used the same expression used in bava metzia, “yesh,” that was what it was known as, much like “yesh zikah” vs “ain zikah.” She took rebbe yochanans shitah further and applied it to herself, and that she should go further out of her way in order to get the most pesios and therefore the most schar. Her expression sounds more of a reminder than her saying something new.

I don’t know if Rav even argues on the entire concept, that there’s schar for every step; he might just hold that it’s not an inyan to go out of your way to make more steps, much like we don’t wear multiple tzitzis, even though each one is a mitzvah.

Avira, you are contradicting yourself. Initially you said that even before R’ Yochanan met the אלמנה he knew that of course a man should do this; the אלמנה taught him that even a woman should do this. Now you’re saying, “we don’t learn anything specific about (sic) women from this story.”
The concept that a person should be מטריח themselves to get more שכר is גופא the concept of שכר פסיעות: the אלמנה was teaching him that the more you are טורח the more שכר you get.

Rav and R’ Yochanan did not discuss personally every מחלוקת that they had: Rav lived in בבל and R’ Yochanan lived in Eretz Yisroel. They weren’t aware of all each other’s teachings, כדמוכח from בבא קמא קיז (the story with R’ Yochanan and Rav Kahana.) Indeed, R’ Abba, who was R’ Yochanan’s תלמיד, had to ask the תלמידים of Rav how Rav explained the פסוקים, because he didn’t know himself. That discussion is the source of the מחלוקת, as is obvious from the גמרא.

After the גמרא records the two פשטים of Rav and Rebbi Yochanan, the גמרא says רבי יוחנן לטעמיה דאמר שכר פסיעות יש. This makes it very clear that the מחלוקת is based on Rebbi Yochanan holding that there is a concept of שכר פסיעות, and Rav holding that there isn’t.

Avirah, your sytem does not work in the rischa deoraysa of yeshiva. Kol Hakovod to coffee addict for bringing back intelligent discussions to the YWN CR! And thank you, mods, for letting these discussions through.

When someone asks a good question, you can’t just say “Mesorah”! You need to back up your point from a source in shas and poskim. His whole question is how did that mesorah develop? We have always had women in Klal Yisrael who were not watching children.

To say it is not an ikar for women is also not an answer. No one said it is an ikar. The question is if there is not such a high level of difficulty why is not more commonly done? For a man to daven vasikin is also not an ikar but we don’t say “man should not daven vasikin bec. his ikar is learning Torah”

I looked back on what i originally wrote and yes, i did change what i said originally – because after i saw the gemaros and rashis in question, it was clearer to me; sometimes something is so clear that you forget what you previously thought…so yes, it was a contradiction, and what i said last is what i think pshat is in the gemara.

I should add that שכר הליכה for shul is an open mishnah in avos (5:14), הולך ואינו עושה, שכר הליכה בידו, so it is clear that there is schar for the act of going to shul – the only machlokes is if there’s an inyan to be matriach one’s self for extra schar halicha, as i wrote above.

Sam: Part of the reason why women don’t attend Shul on weekdays, is that the עזרת נשים usually doubles as a כולל. Even at שחרית, often men are davening there. Ben Gurion Airport has a synagogue with a section for women, but I have seen women prevented form entering because a man was there.
ujm: שלחן ערוך או”ח קו,א says נשים חייבות בתפלה. There is some discussion about whether they need to say שמונה עשרה etc. See M.B. that the consensus is that they should at least try, but all admit that they are not required to daven ערבית, הלל, ומוסף. So for what the do say, all the conditions apply, since nowhere does שולחן ערוך say “This detail is for men only”.
Of course those with small children are exempt: עוסק במצוה פטור מן המצוה applies to everyone.
Avira: The topic under discussion is “Women davening with a minyan”, not “Where does davening with a minyan come in relation to tznius, chesed, leshon hora, etc.”
I admit there is a problem of women gathering and mixing with men on Shabbos after Musaph. There are ways to avoid this, and a wise frum woman will. if necessary, they should avoid Friday nights and Musaph, since they are not required to daven then at all.

I’ve seen minyan not timed to yichud. As to ample time, you don’t hap the concept of mitzvos she ein lahem shiur. It is like saying you have ample time to learn, go throw out the garbage and go to work