Women of the Wall (WoW)

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  • #609610

    playtime
    Member

    What is the Issur for women to wear Tefillin?

    Didn’t Rashi’s daughters wear Tefillin?

    Also, there are no protests that they have mixed seating, etc., so why all of the sudden when they don Tefillin is it such an issue?

    #958976

    oomis
    Participant

    There isn’t. The issur is on making a spectacle of oneself in the false claims that it is in order to serve Hashem, when clearly it is only to serve one’s own ego. They are putting on the tefillin and Talleisim in a public place that the men need to be separate in order to daven. They are doing it for publicity and to break down our traditions. They admit this.

    #958977

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    They can’t keep a guf nakee.

    They were able to

    b/c they don’t have mixed seating in the kosel

    Chareidim are fine with people doing whatever they want, just don’t stick it in our faces

    #958978

    JaneDoe18
    Participant

    WoW also wants to sing their prayers by the Kosel (Kol Isha) and read from a Torah scroll and say Kaddish and count women in a Minyan.

    Their agenda is “women’s equality” in Judaism.

    #958979

    oomis
    Participant

    Except for the kol isha part, there is no inherent issur on the rest of it. They, however, make a big shor of what they are doing, and as Shakespeare said, “The PLAY’S the thing…” If they were truly doing it to serve Hashem out of a great spiritual need, they would do it in an acceptable way.

    As to the Tefillin, there is no issur for women to wear them, but there is no obligation, either. If they are doing the mitzvos they are chayavos in, with the same zeal and zrizus as they are putting into their phoniness with the Tefillin, then I have nothing to object to, except for the Chillul Hashem of their public display, of course.

    #958980

    truthsharer
    Member

    oomis, before 1967 there were no mechitzos at the Kotel.

    In addition, the women today are behind a mechitza when they wear their tallis and tefillin, so your points don’t concern the men.

    The WOW should not be confused with the reform. The WOW do not want mixed davening. They just want to wear a tallis in the lady’s section.

    Whether you agree with them or not, I don’t know why people would forbid it. It’s very dangerous to restrict a minority’s opinion just because you don’t like it. I don’t like people changing the nusach and sayinh Keser instead of Naaritzicha, but I won’t make it illegal.

    #958981

    dafyomi2711
    Member

    does anyone know why they make such a big deal out of Rosh Chodesh? there is a chiyuv to daven everyday

    #958982

    Sam2
    Participant

    Playtime: Their admitted goal is to “liberate” the Kosel from its Mechitzah (the leaders, at least). Unfortunately, there are some women who think like you (and just want to wear Tefillin to volunteer an extra Mitzvah, but which isn’t entirely unproblematic) and have been swept in together with these M’sisim Um’dichim (M’sisos Um’dichos?). The act is not inherently evil. The goal is. If they would have their Davening farther down the wall where it wasn’t meant to antagonize, no one would care (well, some people would, but a lot less). But they won’t do that because their goal is to make a public show and to still the Kosel from everyone else who wants it to stay as it was.

    #958983

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    oomis, before 1967 there were no mechitzos at the Kotel.

    Or jews. Seriously, what in the world is that supposed to mean? You are bringing a proof from the jordanians? How am I supposed to interpret your post in good faith?

    The WOW should not be confused with the reform. The WOW do not want mixed davening. They just want to wear a tallis in the lady’s section.

    It is hard to not confuse them with reform, when the head of the group also happens to be the executive director of the reform. And when she has stated publicly that their goal is to completely liberate the kosel.

    I think you should not confuse your own agendas with WOW’s.

    #958984

    Sam2
    Participant

    Truthsharer: If what you said about WOW was true then there would be a lot fewer problems with them. Unfortunately, the exact opposite of what you said it true. They are M’sisim Um’dichim and deserve nothing but scorn and mocking from us. (Throwing dirty diapers is Assur, by the way, because you are Machshil many people by having dirty diapers in a Makom Tefilah.)

    #958985

    truthsharer
    Member

    Even before 1948 there were no mechitzos.

    You can talk agendas all you want, the fact is that they were doing this for 20+ years, in the women’s section.

    There are far greater fish to fry and in the big game, this will just come back to bite the charedim, who are in the minority.

    Whether the leader is reform or not, is irrelevant to WOW. Until they start protesting mechitzos, it’s a moot point.

    In addition, protesting and making a scene at the Kotel kind of negates the point that the Kotel is not a place for protesting and making scenes.

    Lastly, the Kotel never had a din of kedushas beis knesses so having a group of women davening, behind a mechitza, should not get people all worked up. Let them daven for the 20 minutes once a month.

    #958986

    Israeli Chareidi
    Participant

    If Rashi’s daughter ever wore tefillin (and I’ve never seen any credible source for this) it probably would have been Rabbeinu Tam’s wife – because he held that women should wear tefillin.

    I somehow doubt that the WoW care about this though. And none of the poskim follow Rabbeinu Tam’s view on this – even those who put on Rabbeinu Tam tefillin. Besides, the fact that nobody knows for sure if she wore tefillin means that she probably davened at home – not in public.

    #958987

    truthsharer
    Member

    I just wanted to add, what I mean is that the charedim in Israel have a limited amount of political capital. They should not spend it on this.

    It’s similar to why R’ Moshe Sherer was against protesting gay marriage in the US. He felt that gay marriage was inevitable and there is no point in having us publicaly protest it. It will just have us lose capital. If we are against gay marriage, then we won’t marry.

    But not every “fight” has to be a war.

    #958988

    Sam2
    Participant

    IC: We have women in the Gemara who put on Tefillin. Arguing that it’s Assur from history doesn’t work.

    Truthsharer: Look, the protests might not be the best way to go against them. But that doesn’t change the fact that they are *dead wrong*. It hasn’t been news for decades because they did it differently. They weren’t making a public statement. They were quietly Davening to themselves, in their own little corner, volunteering a Mitzvah at the holiest place they have access to. And no one cared. Because those women were being honest in what they wanted to do and just wanted to Daven. We can make a Sugya over whether or not Tefillin is a Mitzvah that women are allowed to volunteer, but when they weren’t trying to “liberate” the Kosel from its Mechitzah and attack Yiddishkeit, no one bothered them. The history until now and the difference now should show you that these women are trying to destroy our religion and that they are wrong. I’ll agree that there are better ways to fight than throwing diapers. But that doesn’t mean we can take this lying down.

    Oh, and the women who want no Mechitzah and/or to wear Tefillin are a much smaller minority than the men and women who just want to Daven like Jews always have.

    #958989

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Whether the leader is reform or not, is irrelevant to WOW. Until they start protesting mechitzos, it’s a moot point.

    Is it a moot point? I don’t think it is moot. I think it tells us very much about what they are trying to do. Especially when she also tells us that.

    I think it is insanely naive to pretend otherwise.

    #958990

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Truthsharer,

    Love your ironic (moronic) name.

    The key reason why R Sherer did not talk about protesting gay marriage is because he unfortunately passed away before our society stooped so low as to even consider enacting it as a law.

    But your whole argument about these “women” (I guess it is appropriate that you mention gay marriage in connection with this group)that they just want to “daven” and be left alone and leave others alone is a blatant lie. Their self professed mission statement belies that.

    You really should do just the minutest smidgen of research before “sharing” your reinvented “truths”.

    #958991

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Even before 1948 there were no mechitzos.

    So now we’re bringing proofs from when the british were arresting people for bringing chairs to sit down on there?

    What is this? Are you trying to win debating points by fooling us into agreeing with you?

    Fine, you win, I’ll become reform. I’m reform now. I want the WOW to be able to wear tefillin at the kosel.

    #958992

    truthsharer
    Member

    Gay marriage was being legislated for years before R’ Sherer’s passing. Notice that the Agudah didn’t get involved, and still doesn’t get involved.

    It’s not worth to fight something that will happen anyway.

    As for the WOW wanting to make a scene, the facts show that to be untrue.

    For 20+ years no scene was made until the charedim started to antagonize and create laws banning women from wearing a tallis.

    With this, and other issues, the charedim in Israel need to learn to take a chill pill. How would they like it if the majority would start to dictate to them how to act?

    If you think women wearing tallis is wrong, then don’t do it. But let them do it in peace. It’s twenty minutes a month for crying out loud.

    It’s most certainly not assur. We see that the only reason this is making news is because some charedim like to protest. This mont’s scene was much quieter because there was no organized protest.

    Ask yourself, what do you have to gain by protesting, and what do you have to lose by protesting.

    I think I may join all the other non-Charedi posters and leave. It seems that if people disagree with your posts or they can’t argue, they just insult and call you names. Being censored and not being able to post is not condusive to a discussion. There are plenty of Jewish discussion boards out there that allow discussion with little moderation of ideology.

    take your own chill. We’ve posted all your substantive material. If you can’t win your argument on that, it certainly isn’t the moderators fault.

    #958993

    truthsharer
    Member

    And to continue, you all are the reason why there are so many people leaving frumkeit today. When people see the truth and you guys just close your eyes and say, “no”, do you really think that turns people on?

    edited

    #958994

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    you all are the reason why there are so many people leaving frumkeit today.

    If you had even the slightest inclination towards the truth, you would acknowledge that “we all” are not losing our youth to frumkeit in nearly the same numbers as “you all”.

    I can’t imagine what the unedited version of your post looked like.

    #958995

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If you had even the slightest inclination towards the truth, you would acknowledge that “we all” are not losing our youth to frumkeit in nearly the same numbers as “you all”.

    Nobody really knows hoe many OTD’s there really are.

    #958996

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If you had even the slightest inclination towards the truth

    Nor throw a hissy fit and leave, and nor make ridiculous arguments from Jordanian, british mandate, and Ottoman precedent.

    #958997

    truthsharer
    Member

    Well, the fact that there is no Jordanian, Ottoman or British precedent kind of means that there is no precedent for the Kotel being the way it is now.

    It’s been like this since 1967, not for thousands of years.

    #958998

    mendyonline
    Participant

    Q: What do you call the Women Of The Wall?

    A: Walnuts!

    #958999

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    So in other words there is no precedent. I’m glad you are ready to admit that. Now apologize to us for trying to fool us with misleading and ridiculous arguments, and then try making a normal one.

    It seems like you want to argue that it was not a good thing to make the kosel into a shul, and that it should be reversed so that it no longer is a shul. And then somehow you want to argue that that has a bearing on this discussion. Please, by all means, go ahead and make those cases.

    #959000

    yaakov doe
    Participant

    I happen to know one of the Brooklyn women behind WOW and can attest to the fact that these women have their own religion and their own agenda. She has a daughter who is a “rabbi” and wears tefillin. I find it odd that they choose to do mitzvos that they are not obligated to observe, yet ignore those which are obligatory.

    #959001

    truthsharer
    Member

    No, what I am saying is that people saying “for thousands of years, we’ve been davening at the kosel like this” are wrong.

    The kosel is not a shul. It’s a holy place where people daven, but it is not a shul. (otherwise 90% of the stuff that goes on there should be protested.)

    All I’m saying is that if 10 women want to daven once a month for 20 minutes, in the lady’s section, then let them. There certainly is no halachic barrier for a woman in the woman’s section to wear a tallis. Even if there was, if they’re not going to stop regardless, then what do you gain from fighting them?

    Lastly, the only reason why this is becoming a big deal is indeed because the Charedim have made it into a big deal. If they continue to make it a big deal, you can bet that the secular MK’s will start to notice even more and try to rectify, what they perceive, inequalities.

    #959002

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    truthsharer,

    The kosel is not a shul.

    Actually, it is. After taking Yerushalayim in 1967, the Israelis created the Kosel plaza (there was a narrow alley there before) for the purpose of accommodating prayer. They rushed the construction of this plaza ahead of Shavuos. Furthermore, the government appointed R’ Yehuda Meir Getz and then R’ Shmuel Rabinowitz as the Kosel Rav – to oversee the proceedings that take place there. So the plaza was a space created for Jewish prayer, and a rabbi was appointed to oversee it; sounds like a shul to me. Whether you think making it into a shul was a bad idea or not is irrelevant at this point.

    It’s a holy place where people daven

    That’s the Orthodox perspective. The Reform movement’s theology denies the concepts of a personal Moshiach and a restoration of the Avodah of the Beis Hamikdash (G-d forbid), and furthermore they hold R”L that the Avodah itself was man-made, archaic, and even barbaric. It seems inconsistent, therefore, that they would view the Kosel or Har Habayis as holy ground. The Conservative movement severely limits mentioning the Avodah and a personal Moshiach in its prayer books.

    It seems more likely to me that adherents of Reform Judaism view the Kosel as a place of nationalistic (Jewish or Israeli) significance – similar to the way Americans would view the National Mall.

    My shul has existed for fewer than 100 years, but if a group of people attempted to force changes to its customs and practices in defiance of the rav, I would feel upset, even if the shul was also a national landmark.

    #959003

    Sam2
    Participant

    Truthsharer: You’re just wrong in your history. This became an issue when they made it more public, not when the Chareidim started attacking them. For 20 years, they did it as (relatively) Tz’nuos and just Davened. It became an issue when they made it into a public protest. No one cared when they were just Davening. People care now.

    #959004

    truthsharer
    Member

    sam2, and why do you think they made it into a public protest only recently?

    Hint, the answer is because the charedim had them arrested for davening with a tallis.

    #959005

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Had the Charedim totally ignored them and let them be, they would have done they wanted in obscurity and nobody would be paying attention and they probably would have stopped as nobody new would have come and people would have dropped out.

    There is an old saying there is no such thing as bad publicity. NO Publiciy is the worst

    #959006

    moi aussi
    Member

    Walled In

    Rabbi Moshe Grylak

    Tuesday, May 28, 2013

    Sorry, copyright violation.

    #959007

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Acually the reason why they have become more public is becuase they have brought in some PR experts.

    I think you shoul read the articles that are readily availible before stating your Gut feelings as facts.

    #959008

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    They have been there for about 10 years. Their PR has been a failure

    #959009

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Avtually they recently brought in some new ones who chosen to frame the issue as one of “equal rights” akin to Rosa Parks.

    #959010

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its alot easier to frame as Rosa Parks when people are spitting and cursing you and shouting at you than when you are alone and noboody notices

    #959011

    writersoul
    Member

    “If Rashi’s daughter ever wore tefillin (and I’ve never seen any credible source for this) it probably would have been Rabbeinu Tam’s wife – because he held that women should wear tefillin.”

    I think you mean his mother…

    As a girl, I can totally see why WOW’s conceptual idea would be appealing to women. I don’t, however, agree with the way they’re handling it.

    #959012

    Softy
    Member

    actually these wow women have been getting arrested every month for many years. we didnt do anything new. we ha ve been protesting against them for years. and they have been getting arrested for years. the only new thing is that some judge started allowing them to go there with their tefilin/talis and told the police not to arrest them anymore. hence the curren bruhaha.

    btw, rav moshe paskened it is assur and against halacha for them to wear tefilin and even a talis.

    #959013

    computer777
    Member

    btw, rav moshe paskened it is assur and against halacha for them to wear tefilin and even a talis.

    Why did he say it is assur, and where is your source?

    #959014

    oomis
    Participant

    The WOW should not be confused with the reform. “

    While I can appreciate your point, they choose to ALIGN themselves with reform leaders (of course, because what frum person would seek to encourage the Chillul Hashem they have been doing?), so the “confusion” is really not so confused at all.

    I think Beruriah also wore tefillin, if I am not mistaken.

    #959015

    oomis
    Participant

    Had the Charedim totally ignored them and let them be, they would have done they wanted in obscurity and nobody would be paying attention and they probably would have stopped as nobody new would have come and people would have dropped out.”

    We’ll never know. But the fact is that they are deliberately seeking to cause divisiveness, and a frum person does not knowingly cause such damage in a public way. This is their cause du jour. If they REALLY had to put on Tallis and Tefillin every day (and they certainly could do so in privacy), they wouldn’t, because there would be no publicity value in that.

    #959016

    oomis
    Participant

    If you think women wearing tallis is wrong, then don’t do it.”

    I don’t do drugs. it’s wrong. You should not either, because IT’S WRONG, but as long as you break no laws (well that would be difficult since they ARE illegal), I could not stop you from shooting up in private. Many things from which we refrain are wrong; wrong subjectively AND objectively. Something like this that causes public disturbance at the holiest site of the Jews, is no longer a matter of don’t do it yourself if you don’t like it.

    It’s a little like smoking. If you smoke where I have to breathe, then you are infringing on my rights, which must take precedence over yours, because I want to be healthy and clearly you don’t. I am not stopping you from smoking in your owen domain. Just don’t bring your poison into the public one.

    #959017

    cinderella
    Member

    These women are thrilled the publicity they have been receiving recently. And the protest at the Kotel last month was a disgrace. Some seminaries and yeshivos bussed their students there to take part and it ended in chaos. This is exactly what they want. Reform or not, agendas or not, why give them the satisfaction of knowing they pose any threat?

    They won’t get anywhere. Let them protest mechitzos. Let them wear tefillin.

    #959018

    The group’s mission statement, taken from its own website:

    “As Women of the Wall, our central mission is to achieve the social and legal recognition of our right, as women, to wear prayer shawls, pray, and read from the Torah collectively and out loud at the Western Wall.”

    Nothing in there about equality, integration, breaking down the mechitza, or creating a spectacle. Anyone who wants to argue that WOW’s central goals are to do those things should be congratulated for his or her miraculous telepathic abilities.

    #959019

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Why did he say it is assur, and where is your source?

    Igros Moshe OC 4:49 http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=920&st=&pgnum=83

    #959020

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The group’s mission statement, taken from its own website:

    “As Women of the Wall, our central mission is to achieve the social and legal recognition of our right, as women, to wear prayer shawls, pray, and read from the Torah collectively and out loud at the Western Wall.”

    Nothing in there about equality, integration, breaking down the mechitza, or creating a spectacle. Anyone who wants to argue that WOW’s central goals are to do those things should be congratulated for his or her miraculous telepathic abilities.

    Press releases, and interviews, darling.

    #959021

    I’m not your wife. Don’t “darling” me.

    Also, see this excerpt from an article written by two WOW members:

    #959022

    JaneDoe18
    Participant

    From the WoW web site:

    “Why Nashot Hakotel?

    Maybe someone should let these wimmin know that the 1st woman was derived from the rib of a man.

    I’m surprised that they didn’t re-spell female as femail.

    Hillel and Shammai were ultra-Orthodox Rabbis who debated for the sake of Heaven. None of their debates were about whether women should wear Talis and Tefilin and should sing in front of men.

    If WoW is citing what ultra-Orthodox Rabbis did, why are they against Orthodox rules at the Kosel?

    The Orthodox Rabbis have passed the Mesora from generation to generation from Sinai, where Moshe Rabbeinu received it from G-d. The rules governing “our life cycle from birth and conversion to death” come from G-d. They do not change in a democracy.

    #959023

    littlefishy
    Member

    yeah, those wimmin are ridiculous! But they’re successful. They wanted attention and we’re handing it to them on a silver platter, with cheese knishes on the side!

    #959024

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Yes, but there are other quotes from Hoffman where she makes clear that part of their agenda is to make the kosel not orthodox. Try these:

    Hoffman:

    “today, Women of the Wall liberated the Western Wall for all Jewish people. … We did it for the great diversity of Jews in the world, all of whom deserve to pray according to their belief and custom at the Western Wall.”

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