Women on a higher level
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- This topic has 72 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 6 years, 5 months ago by benignuman.
December 11, 2016 4:21 am at 4:21 am #1198187
You really hit the proverbial nail on the head with your
” but I’ve always wondered if there’s any real source for it… It does seem to fly in the face of the concept of ??? ????? ???????,”
Thanks for the compliment, but it belongs to MW13 – I was just quoting him/her in order to comment on it.December 11, 2016 4:34 am at 4:34 am #1198188It is Time for TruthParticipant
Lu,Your comment was crucialDecember 11, 2016 5:10 am at 5:10 am #1198189
ITFT: Thanks! 🙂 I thought you were talking about the quote from MW13.
I’m really happy to get feedback. It was really long, so I didn’t know if anyone would read it. And I really did want to know what people think of it. It’s a complicated topic, and one I’m always wary of getting into because it’s so hard to express what I think the right way.December 11, 2016 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #1198190
The following should be obvious:
Men are not on a higher spiritual level than women; women are not on a higher spiritual level than men. One’s spiritual level depends on one’s personal choices in the test of life. It is purely individual and cannot be assigned on a category level.
Having more mitzvos means that generally speaking men have greater potential than women both for good and for bad. When the Gemara says that women have a more secure promise for Olam Haba than men it is specifically because generally speaking it is easier for a woman to fulfill what Hashem wants from her than a man, not because women are born “better.”December 11, 2016 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1198191JosephParticipant
benig: Is a Kohen on a higher spiritual level, by default, than a Yisroel? Why, by default, do we save the life of a Kohen before a Yisroel and a man before a woman?December 11, 2016 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #1198192
On the other hand, it is incorrect to say that it is better to be a boy, objectively speaking, because of the brocha of Shelo Asani Isha. That does not follow logically. All that brocha tells you is that it is better for the BOY TO BE A BOY.
Obviously, Hashem chooses which neshomos to become boys and which neshomos to become girls. The boy neshomos are made that the better circumstance for them is the one where they have greater potential for good but also greater potential for bad. The girl neshomos are made that the better circumstance for them is the one where they have an easier time achieving good but less variance.
In short, it is better for boys to be boys and it is better for girls to be girls.December 11, 2016 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #1198193
Benignuman – Your second post reminds me of a story I once heard. Reuven was from a cultural background that values having boys, so he gave Shimon a bracha (common in his circles) that he should have
????? ?????- meaning that he should have boys.
Reuven was from a different cultural background in which it is not the norm to give brachos like that so he added, ????? ?????
????? ????? (the boys should be male and the girls should be female).
That being said, there is a concept of davening to have boys and there is a concept that it is better to have boys. But it is true that for the girl herself it is obvious better to be a girl, and for the parents as well, if Hashem gave them girls it was obviously better for them to have girls. That is an important point to remember. Thank you!December 11, 2016 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #1198194
“Men are not on a higher spiritual level than women; women are not on a higher spiritual level than men. One’s spiritual level depends on one’s personal choices in the test of life. It is purely individual and cannot be assigned on a category level.”
I think we are getting into semantics here. I was using the terms “higher spiritual level” in a different way than you are. I was using it the way one would say that Malachim are more Ruchniyus than people are. That doesn’t mean they are better. They didn’t use any bechira to get to where they are and people use bechira to get to where they are, so people are actually better (if they use their bechira the right way).
Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that women are more spiritual by nature as opposed to saying “on a higer spiritual level”.December 11, 2016 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #1198195
“Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that women are more spiritual by nature as opposed to saying “on a higer spiritual level”. “
lilmod ulelamaid: That’s a good point. Thanks for the edit 🙂December 11, 2016 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #1198196
Thanks LB 🙂December 11, 2016 11:53 pm at 11:53 pm #1198197Little FroggieParticipant
I don’t think they’re any more spiritual than their counterparts. It’s just that they get to describe it with ten kavim.December 12, 2016 1:05 am at 1:05 am #1198198
Isn’t it nine? We didn’t take all of them – we left you one!December 12, 2016 1:37 am at 1:37 am #1198199
LF: What does describing it with ten lines mean?December 12, 2016 2:08 am at 2:08 am #1198200Little FroggieParticipant
Someone in the Coffee Room finished it off..December 12, 2016 2:46 am at 2:46 am #1198201
You seem to have something left…December 12, 2016 2:49 am at 2:49 am #1198202
LB – it’s Kavim spelled with a ?
not a ?
It means portions or measures. It’s brought down that there are 10 measures of speech and women took nine of them.
But now LF is claiming that I stole the last one as well.December 12, 2016 3:18 am at 3:18 am #1198203ahronParticipant
the reason they have less mitzvos is b/c theyre on a higher levelDecember 12, 2016 3:56 am at 3:56 am #1198204
Lol you didn’t steal it. It was a Chanukah gift!
Thanks for the Hebrew lesson 🙂
Oh that’s why they say that women have to be extra sensitive about their speechDecember 12, 2016 4:18 am at 4:18 am #1198205
“It was a Chanukah gift!”
from who?December 12, 2016 4:31 am at 4:31 am #1198206
HarryDecember 13, 2016 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #1198207
No, a Kohen is not by default on a higher spiritual level than a Yisroel. The priority of a Kohen before a Yisroel is because of the kavod that Hashem requires we give the Kehuna. So all things being equal we give kavod to the Kohen but if we know that the Yisroel is a greater talmud chochom, the Yisroel comes first because the kavod HaTorah comes first.
That being said, I don’t think you are correct that we necessarily save the life of a Kohen first. The Mishna in Horios that I think you are referring to, is talking about kedima in tzedaka or kavod. See Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah 351:9.
In the case of a woman and a man, when it comes to tzedakah the Shulchan Aruch paskens that the woman has kadimah. (Yoreh Deah 351:8) When it comes to hatzalas nefoshos, the Rema paskens that the man comes first (Yoreh Deah 352:8). The meforshim explain that this is because a man has more mitzvos than a woman (i.e. the greater potential of the man wins out over the higher floor of the woman). But if one knew that the woman was righteous and the man was not, b’pashtus the woman would come first. See Yerushalmi Horiyos 3:4.December 13, 2016 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #1198208
I can’t look it up right now, but I’m pretty positive the Mishna says that a Kohen’s life takes kadima over a yisrael and a man over a woman and that this is regardless of who is more righteous.
However, I don’t know if that means that Kohanim are more spiritual than Yisraelim. That may have to do with one’s definition of spiritual.December 13, 2016 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1198209
The Mishna uses the term ?????? for the men coming before women, it does not use that term for Kohanim coming before Yisroel. Furthermore, the Shulchan Aruch only brings down a Kohen coming before a Yisroel for tzedaka, it doesn’t say anything about for saving a life.
Now, there is a machlokes among the Rishonim whether ?????? means for saving a life or for providing tzedaka. But the Rema clearly paskens that a man comes before a women if they are both drowning. The Yerushalmi on that Mishna says specifically that the wife of a “Chaver” (roughly equivalent to a “ben Torah”) comes before an am ha’aretz ??????.
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