July 8, 2016 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #1158925
frum people didnt like EMS , so they started Hatzloh
Frum people didnt like Public School so they started the yeshiva system
frum people didnt like the Public bus service so they started their own bus (The B110 bus)
There is no reason a pool cannot be built in Williamsburg for the same reason, besides learning to swim is a HALACHA.
Dont think Giverim in Williamsvburg are strongly urged to put their money in certain charities, there is no reason some of that money cant be used for a pool (The pool could be built in the basement of a Shul or Yeshiva with a seperate entrance)July 8, 2016 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #1158926
And just for the record, in my neighborhood the pool does not have seperate swimming hours, those who want to go seperate swimming must go to the Y, and the Y near me costs more money than the one in BPJuly 8, 2016 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1158927🐵 ⌨ GamanitParticipant
zahavasdad- maybe that seems reasonable to you but that is beyond what I can afford. I love swimming, yet I only swim approximately once a year being as I cannot afford to go more often. There is no publicly funded pool in my area with woman only swim hours. I’m not saying swimming is a right. However, I think it’s incredibly unfair of someone who can swim almost all of the time to claim discrimination for not being allowed in during women’s swim. From the New York Human Rights Law
b) Notwithstanding the foregoing, the provisions of this subdivision shall not apply, with respect to age or gender, to places or providers of public accommodation where the commission grants an exemption based on bona fide considerations of public policy.July 8, 2016 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #1158928
The Borough Park Y has resources for those who cannot afford the full amount to pay less. They even have a kollel family rateJuly 8, 2016 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #1158929MammeleParticipant
Gamanit: With the current NYC decision, if you live in NYC, you can gather 200 petitions and request women’s swim hours if you have a local city pool. The city’s rates are more reasonable.July 8, 2016 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #1158930apushatayidParticipant
Become a member at the Young Israel of Bedford Bay and you have free use of their pool. Non members pay $10 to swim.July 8, 2016 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #1158931
The kollel family rate is for kollel families. But plenty of people can’t afford the full rate.July 8, 2016 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #1158932
From the website
The Boro Park Y is a community-based agency, and it is our goal to serve all the members, from infants through senior adults.
In the case of financial difficulty, scholarships may be arranged confidentially. There are no government funds to cover membership, and we ask all members who are applying for a scholarship to complete the forms entirely and truthfully. The scholarships offered are modest, to enable us to provide assistance to as many people who apply. Please submit the forms with as much information as you can provide so that the committee can treat your application with respect and consideration.July 8, 2016 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #1158933
The scholarships offered are modest
So it’s still expensive.July 8, 2016 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #1158934
Its $550 for a family of unlimted size for an entire year.
People seem to have no problem spending extra money on chumras because they feel its important, if they feel a pool is important they can spend the money
$550 is about $11 a week. Drink less coffee and go to the pool. Its a mitzvah to learn to swim, its not a mitzvah to drink Coffee.
Ive noticed on the main news paper there are picture-logs of people packing up and going to the Catskills for the summer. it is not cheap to go there. I know I dont go there. There is a place to save $550 and join the Y for all year round swimmingJuly 8, 2016 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #1158935
You are giving budgeting tips to families you know nothing about?
How do you know how important the mountains areto them? How do you know who drinks what brand of coffee?
There’s no reason the municipal pool can’t be available to them. Maybe the men who want access to the pool those six hours a week can build their own pool and cut out their cable subscriptions.July 8, 2016 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #1158936
There are plenty of good scientific reasons to have separate-gender swimming. This is not only a religious issue.July 8, 2016 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #1158937
Its 4 hours a week, not six
BTW I checked at the Kingsbay Y, they only have 2 hours a week for womens only and 2 hours a week for men onlyJuly 8, 2016 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #1158938
It’s all missing the point.
These people are tax payers like everyone else. They also live in the area this pool services. There is nothing illegal about having seperate hours.
There is nothing in the law that says the pool has to be available for everyone at every time.
You get all riled up when you imagine that people might be telling you what to do.
Well that’s all you’re doing here. Telling who to build neighborhood pools with their money. Telling peopl where they should go.
If I weren’t nice, I would cal you a blazing hypocrite. It’s a good thing that I am nice.July 8, 2016 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #1158939
ITS A MUNICIPAL POOL
How would you like it if you couldn’t park in a municipal parking lot because a bunch of people decided only they can park there from 10-12 every day?July 8, 2016 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #1158940hujuParticipant
The financial and US constitutional issue is similar to the issue in the Ramapo and Lakewood school districts. Public funds are expended in ways that frum Jews cannot utilize – frum Jews cannot send their children to public school for a variety of reasons, and frum Jews cannot swim in public pools where immodest attire is permitted. Public funds can pay for buses to yeshiva, but not for teachers in the yeshivas. There is no easy way out, but on the swimming pool issue, public authorities seem to have made an appropriate and legal accomodation.July 8, 2016 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #1158941
Its 4 hours a week, not six
BTW I checked at the Kingsbay Y, they only have 2 hours a week for womens only and 2 hours a week for men only
Yet, you begrudge them even that.July 8, 2016 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #1158942
CA, that is an atrocious analogy.July 8, 2016 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #1158943
Some goyim like to swim in the summer in the middle of the dayJuly 8, 2016 10:44 pm at 10:44 pm #1158944
There are lots of things tax payers pay for that you cannot use. Should people pay for a Library if they dont go, Should people without Kids pay for schools?
Should we pay for EMS when we use Hatzolah?
Should people who dont drive pay for roads.
That is the price we pay for living in a free society, we have to pay for stuff we dont need and dont want.
Nobody is preventing anyone from using the pool, People are choosing not to use it.July 8, 2016 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #1158945
CA: Some goyim like to swim in the summer in the middle of the day
And some probably like to swim at 3am.
ZD: That is the price we pay for living in a free society, we have to pay for stuff we dont need and dont want.
You take the exact opposite attitude regarding Twizzlers and non-gebrokts.July 8, 2016 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #1158946
I was actually suprised the Kingsbay Y only has 2 hours a week for men and 2 hours a week for women. I dont begrduge them for having seperate hours, I think they should have more if the people who belong want it. The Borough Park one has more hours. The Y is a private institution and can do whatever the members wantJuly 8, 2016 10:53 pm at 10:53 pm #1158947
The municipality can also make reasonable accommodation for separate swimming.
Legally, the Y is no better in this regard than the city pools.July 8, 2016 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #1158948
The Y is a private institution, no different than a Shul or Yeshiva than doesnt allow women or non jews to enterJuly 10, 2016 2:45 am at 2:45 am #1158949
Private facilities are not exempt from the public accommodation law. Read the statute.July 10, 2016 2:56 am at 2:56 am #1158950
Also the Public Facilities would have to allow the Chassid formerly known as Abe Stein or the Olympic Gold Medalist formerly known as Bruce Jenner during the female hoursJuly 10, 2016 3:09 am at 3:09 am #1158951
Wrong. Completely and utterly wrong.
Besides the “Y” gets public grants.July 10, 2016 3:12 am at 3:12 am #1158952
ZD, read the statute (296-2). You’re wrong.
The Y wouldn’t be able to keep them out either.July 10, 2016 4:00 am at 4:00 am #1158953
Plenty of women from all backgrounds want women-only swimming. Most men don’t mind.July 10, 2016 4:51 am at 4:51 am #1158954
But the pool isn’t open then, it’s open at 10 am (please don’t tell me it’s closed for men, that’s discriminatory)
Prove itJuly 10, 2016 5:18 am at 5:18 am #1158955
It is legal, and doesn’t fall under the non-discrimination statute.July 10, 2016 5:34 am at 5:34 am #1158956MammeleParticipant
CA: there are other swim options, especially during the summer time, open to all genders during daytime hours. There is an outdoor NYC Park’s swimming pool in Greenpoint not far from the Metropolitan pool in question. These 4 hours female only hours are not the end of the world for anybody. (If I’d have to guess, more women in general use the city indoor pools than men.)July 10, 2016 7:13 am at 7:13 am #1158957TheGoqParticipant
I want human only swimming no sharks or jellyfish please.July 10, 2016 12:23 pm at 12:23 pm #1158958
Lucille Roberts is a womens only gym and its perfectly legal in NYCJuly 10, 2016 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #1158959
But they’ve been sued for not accommodating frum people.
So you you see that gender separate hours is not considered discrimination, while exclusion based on religion is.
You’ve done a fine job of disproving yourself.July 10, 2016 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1158960
A private “Kosher Gym” is legal meaning enforced dressed codes, seperate evengts etc. A public one is notJuly 10, 2016 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #1158961
ZD, why do you repeat the same mistake? There is no legal distinction between private and government run facilities. Read the statute.
Separate facilities or hours for men and women is not considered discrimination because it is a reasonable policy because of privacy/modesty issues, as evidenced by the existence of a place such as Lucille Roberts.
OTOH, if it was called Shaindle Roberts, there would probably be lawsuits by the anti-Semites and self hating Jews.
Here is the law:
N.Y. Executive Law, Article 15
Human Rights Law
2. (a) It shall be an unlawful discriminatory practice for any person, being the owner, lessee, proprietor, manager, superintendent, agent or employee of any place of public accommodation, resort or amusement, because of the race, creed, color, national origin, sexual orientation, military status, sex, or disability or marital status of any person, directly or indirectly, to refuse, withhold from or deny to such person any of the accommodations, advantages, facilities or privileges thereof, including the extension of credit, or, directly or indirectly, to publish, circulate, issue, display, post or mail any written or printed communication, notice or advertisement, to the effect that any of the accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any such place shall be refused, withheld from or denied to any person on account of race, creed, color, national origin, sexual orientation, military status, sex, or disability or marital status, or that the patronage or custom thereat of any person of or purporting to be of any particular race, creed, color, national origin, sexual orientation, military status, sex or marital status, or having a disability is unwelcome, objectionable or not acceptable, desired or solicited.
(b) Nothing in this subdivision shall be construed to prevent the barring of any person, because of the sex of such person, from places of public accommodation, resort or amusement if the division grants an exemption based on bona fide considerations of public policy; nor shall this subdivision apply to the rental of rooms in a housing accommodation which restricts such rental to individuals of one sex.July 10, 2016 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #1158962
There was a frum Gym on Nostrand Ave (or at least had frum hours) but they ended it because the membership didnt want it, not because of lawsuitsJuly 11, 2016 3:11 am at 3:11 am #1158965
Sure, because any lawsuit would be thrown out because separate hours are in bona fide consideration of public policy.
However, one lawyer who was against separate hours in the municipal pool admitted in an interview that according to her stance, Lucille Roberts is also illegal.July 11, 2016 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #1158966
“Plenty of women from all backgrounds want women-only swimming. Most men don’t mind. “
Yes .The old public schools even had separated entrances for boys and girlsJuly 11, 2016 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #1158967
Under the same system of
lawJuly 11, 2016 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #1158968
“an exemption based on bona fide considerations of public policy”
that’s large enough gap to run a whole football team and their bus throughJuly 11, 2016 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #1158969
N.Y. Executive Law, Article 15
Human Rights Law should add possibilities for discrimination “for self definitions as of yet to be invented”July 12, 2016 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #1158970apushatayidParticipant
“Separate facilities (or hours) for men and women is not considered discrimination because it is a reasonable policy because of privacy/modesty issues,”
What will happen when a man with an “identity crisis” shows up for womens hours?July 12, 2016 10:53 pm at 10:53 pm #1158971lesschumrasParticipant
He’ll be allowed in. Under NYC rules, a man can use female facilities as long as they “identify” as a woman.
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