Women wearing tzitzis

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  • #1615055

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    I just heard a shiur on how when moshiach comes, women will (most probably as there is room lichalek on its nightly obligation), be obligated to wear Tzitzis!

    I can fill you all in why and how. But anyone else heard of this. I found it fascinating

    #1615067

    MDG
    Participant

    I never heard anything like that.

    Besides which, look at the Rambam on the 12th chapter of laws of Kings where he quotes ‏the Gemara which says that it’s basically pointless in pontificating what’s going to happen.

    #1615166

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Mdg im talking halachically, not pontificating about how the Geula will happen…

    #1615185

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    OK here goes the logic: since the moon will shine like the sun, the mitzvah of Tzitzis will apply at night too which removes it from the category of a mitzvah shehazman grama, hence its application to women.

    Why will it be applicable at night? The reason why its only a chiyuv by day now is because the mitzvah is uriisem oso. Since at night out is dark, the mitzvah doesn’t apply then. However by moshiach as above-mentioned, the moon will shine too. So we will see the Tzitzis by night too and will be mechuyav to wear by night

    #1615200

    Meno
    Participant

    When will people sleep?

    #1615204

    StuartW
    Participant

    No offense intended, but don’t we have enough to worry about with our current obligations?

    On the other hand, it is frankly nice that your fantasies take you to lofty places. It is symptomatic of a pure soul imho

    #1615217

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Meno apparently that will change as well. Currently we wouldn’t sleep well in a dark world.

    Stuart thank you. I find it fascinating for two reasons: 1) that usually women wearing Tzitzis is associated with the complete opposite than serving Hashem (although to be fair it is also a sign of extreme righteousness as long as done in a quiet fashion, and there were women throughout history who wore Tzitzis on top of their mandatory obligations)
    So it’s interesting to see it in a completely different light. Almost funny, like a joke. Sudden change of perspective.

    Also find it fascinating in terms of thinking of Tzitzis fashion that will invariably arise if it becomes part of a womans wardrobe. In fact it is likely there will be the standard tzitzis for men, just with techeiles, while women designers will design feminine tzitzis friendly designs too wear as part of the clothing… Funny to think about.

    Also being that I am expecting to see moshiach in the near future, it does look like something that will directly impact me as well.

    #1615235

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Correction : we wouldn’t sleep well in a lit up world

    #1615238

    StuartW
    Participant

    “Also being that I am expecting to see moshiach in the near future, it does look like something that will directly impact me as well.”
    Ever heard of Techiyas Hameisim? Not to imply CV that the annointed one won’t be revealed as early as today.

    “usually women wearing Tzitzis is associated with the complete opposite than serving Hashem”.
    People are quick to judge others. Ruach Hakodesh anyone? Psychic abilities? Who can read these girls, and ladies’ minds, for it is their kavonos that are the deteminant.

    #1615360

    5ish
    Participant

    Where do we see it as a sign of extreme righteousness? The Admor Hazaken writes in his Shulchan Aruch that it is not done because of the concept of “מחזי כיוהראץ” If the solution was for it to be done privately he could have easily written “Women put on a tallis secretly because of מחזי כיוהרא. Instead he wrote, women do not put on a tallis because of מחזי כיוהרא.

    #1615404

    HolyMoe
    Participant

    The most important question: Will they wear Tcheiles?

    #1615423

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Holymoe why wouldn’t they? Wearing techeiles is part and parcel of Tzitzis, isn’t it?

    #1615422

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    5ish unfortunately I don’t know the exact source offhand. All I know is that I learned that certain righteous women (who is course already did all their mitzvos and were eager to do more) discreetly wore Tzitzis underneath their garments. Rashis daughters are one example. Maybe some of the menfolk here have come across this and can give you the exact source.

    Again this was not for regular women, it was women of extreme piety.

    #1615420

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Stuartw I specifically worded my post as the opposite of Avodas Hashem, not evil intentions or the like because as you said they may be sincerely misguided. However, regarding serving Hashem,in actuality you can only be
    serving if you do what He asks, not Not do what He asks and only want to do what He doesn’t ask…

    #1615442

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rashi’s daughters did not wear tefilin or tzitzis. It is a bubbe maaisa (pardon the pun) that originated relatively not that long ago in some fables tales.

    #1615468

    Amil Zola
    Participant

    “…women designers will design feminine tzitzis friendly designs too wear…” It’s happening already. Google is your friend.

    #1615469

    StuartW
    Participant

    Chabadshlucha, i don’t want to make a big thing out of this, but my take on “opposite of Avodas Hashem” is pajorative, and does not apply to the misguided.

    I don’t mind agreeing to disagree.

    #1615462

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Joseph, I learned this in seminary in the subject where we went through each of the zman grama mitzvos and why women do or don’t do them. The Rabbis there were very learned, Id be surprised if the Tzitzis thing was just based on a bubbe maase as everything was sourced. Not knowing something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist or is a bubbe maase, it just means you haven’t learned it yet.

    Otoh, I acknowledge that it isn’t fair to expect you to believe me without any source, just my recollection learning it. I wouldn’t mind being wrong on this point either, as I’ll be the first to admit that today, as I said above, women wearing tzitzis is not associated with Avodas Hashem. So you can not believe me. I do trust my recollection and have faith in the integrity of my teachers. Hopefully someone else here will be able to clear it up with the source

    #1615494

    StuartW
    Participant

    Regarding Rashi’s daughters wearing tsitsis and or tefilin, and if so, weather with or without saying a brocha, there is no proof one way or the other. There us no way to know for the time being. Sorry folks, I know this is not very satisfying.

    #1615517

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Hmm Stuartw how would you word it? What they do is wrong. I’m not concerned about being pc. I think Dan lchaf zechus bases are covered by not assigning them necessarily evil intentions, and saying its not Avodas Hashem is quite a soft way of putting it while still acknowledging its wrong. But open to hearing your thoughts.

    #1615624

    StuartW
    Participant

    “Not Avodas hashem”, as you word it more recently Shlucha, is vastly different from “opposite of avodas hashem”

    #1615691

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    “usually women wearing Tzitzis is associated with the complete opposite than serving Hashem”.

    Stuart,

    R Moshe says the same

    #1615623

    StuartW
    Participant

    Chabadshlucha,

    Let’s back up a little.

    I would like to be clear of what we are talking about to get some common ground. Tell me if you agree or disagree:

    Women are permitted to wear tsitsis as long as
    (i) they are not intending it as a display of egalitarianism and (ii) they wear the tsitsis discreetly or make the garment in the form of feminine clothing

    Let’s assume that no brocha is uttered.

    Permitted or not?

    #1615723

    Non Political
    Participant

    “Who can read these girls, and ladies’ minds, for it is their kavonos that are the deteminant.”

    Nope. Doing the wrong thing with pure intentions is still wrong. Just like if someone would want to introduce organ music on Shabbos in Shuls even with the purest of intentions it would be wrong.

    But when night becomes day and bassar chazir becomes kosher then all bets are off, עין לא ראה אלוקים זולתך

    #1615750

    StuartW
    Participant

    yitzchokm,

    We are in agreement that there are women who wear tstsis davka to show that men and women ought to have the same roles in Avoidas Hashem. We all agree that this is contrary to avodas hashem.

    My angle, and it comes up quite often in the CR, is that posters are often trigger happy on the weapon of condemnation.

    There are plenty of circumstances under which women wearing tsitsis is permitted. I am not talking about Women of the Wall.

    I doubt R Moshe used the exact verbiage you presented. He may have been referring to Women of the Wall types who put on a rebellious show.

    R Moshe was a brilliant posek but not a navi. He didn’t know of all the women in the world who wear tsitsis in halachically acceptable ways with hearts consumed with a isas hashem.

    My mission here is not to appear smart or to argue. I just would like people to err on the side of kaf z’chus

    #1616078

    5ish
    Participant

    Stuart, the Shulchan Aruch Harav writes that if women put on a tallis they make a bracha. That is independent of if they should put on a tallis/tzitzis. He writes that Women do not do so because of “mechzei kyuhara.”

    #1615863

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    I hear you stuartw. What I meant by today, is the women of the wall types who are not at all innocent and are pushing for provocation. There may be some women in reform temples who really sincerely think it’s a good thing to do, but the headlines today show a movement towards provocation etc.

    I would venture to say, that although there may have been great women in the past who wore tzitzis secretly (this is why they’re not well known, as the whole point was that it was secretly as it’s against halacha to wear openly.) today, no G-d fearing righteous woman would dream of requesting to wear tzitzis as it has become a symbol of the fight against halacha, mesora and women’s special role in Yiddishkeit

    #1615840

    Non Political
    Participant

    @stuartw

    “There are plenty of circumstances under which women wearing tsitsis is permitted. I am not talking about Women of the Wall.”

    What would those circumstances be exactly??

    “I doubt R Moshe used the exact verbiage you presented. He may have been referring to Women of the Wall types who put on a rebellious show.”

    Rebellion means – the act or process of resisting authority, control, or convention. Wearing tzitzis by women certainly runs contrary to past and present convention and halachic authority. Are you aware of of any top tier poskim who sanctioned this practice? Any community where this practice was the accepted custom?

    “He didn’t know of all the women in the world who wear tsitsis in halachically acceptable ways with hearts consumed with a isas hashem.”

    All the heartfelt sincerity in the world wouldn’t make this practice acceptable

    “My mission here is not to appear smart or to argue. I just would like people to err on the side of kaf z’chus”

    Judging lkaf zchus means acknowledging that we are not privy to another person’s subjective experiences and therefore not committing the error of attributing negative motive and / or intent to their actions. So in our case that would mean assuming that a woman who is wearing tzitzis is most likely a sincere albeit misguided individual (as opposed to a willful rebel). It certainly does not include turning and unacceptable practice into an acceptable one.

    #1616109

    StuartW
    Participant

    WOW women are troublemakers who enjoy being in the spotlight. Many conservative jews will tell you that.
    They do their schtick at the kosel knowing they will get leople’s blood boiling and they love it. If they didn’t have this cause they would find another one.

    There may be 100 jewish women, there may be 1,000,000 jewish women, who secretly wear tsitsis, in keeping with halacha.

    We don’t know because it’s ……… a secret.

    ChabadShucha, do you maintain that a woman needs to request permission from a Rov to wear Tsitsis? You mentioned “request”. Or did you mean it another way?

    #1616117

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    The custom is that women don’t wear garments that require tzitzis.

    #1616127

    StuartW
    Participant

    Rebyidd,

    There is no “THE” custom. Customs are community-dependent. That’s why you hear people say “our minhag …”.

    Customs are also not halacha, which is what we are talking about.

    #1616135

    torah613ami
    Participant

    It’s clearly stated in hilchos tzitzis that women CAN
    wear tzitzis with no restrictions. It’s also clear that there are a lot of comedians in this thread.

    #1616137

    torah613ami
    Participant

    It’s clear in Halacha that women CAN wear
    tzitzis.

    #1616126

    StuartW
    Participant

    Non political:
    In a nutshell a woman may wear tsitsis unless she seems to demonstrate that she doesn’t agree that the obligation is on men only. WOW is the perfect example of what is not permitted. Women in conservative shuls who were the same taleisim as men, also not permitted (although I have observed that most of those taleisim have tsitsis that are not kosher anyhow;I checked myself in a few places just for curiosity lol).

    Secretly wearing is ok, or on a feminine garment.
    I imagine you disagree, but if the community generally doesn’t do something, but it is permitted al pi halacha, that won’t stop me from doing it privately. Publically is different, because I dont want to lead people ato be choshed b’ksheirim.

    I am pretty much done with this topic, so if you rebut anything here, I will let you have the last word.

    Shavua tov and Gutte voch.

    #1617640

    Non Political
    Participant

    “if the community generally doesn’t do something, but it is permitted al pi halacha, that won’t stop me from doing it privately.”

    You seem to be under the impression that an individual is not halachically bound by community custom and can privately disregard it if he / she sees fit. This is generally false. It is true in the the following scenarios:

    1) When a custom varies from community to community AND the individual is a visitor who is privately acting in accordance with the custom of their home community (or a talmid keeping the practice of his rebbe).

    2) When a custom is a boorish error

    Neither of the above apply to our case since there are no communities where women had a custom to wear tzitzis and no Rabbonim who instructed that they ought to adopt such a practice. In fact the opposite is true, Rabbonim have objected to them doing so.

    Also, I am aware that the Rema holds that if a woman puts on tzitzis she would make a bracha. This is in line with The Rema’s psak (and Ashkenazik custom) that women make a bracha on time bound mitzvot as opposed to the Shulchan Aruch’s psak that they do not. This has no bearing on the fact that women did not in practice wear tzitzis, a practice which the Rema considered a show of arrogance. You should also be aware that the Levush holds (based on Targum Yerushami) that a woman who wears tzitsis transgresses the Torah prohibition of wearing male garments.

    “I am pretty much done with this topic, so if you rebut anything here, I will let you have the last word.”

    Ok, will do

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