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  • #604730
    simcha613
    Participant

    I recently saw an article here where R’ Shteinman said ideally a woman should not be working in the afternoon so she can raise the children. At the same time, many families need the wife to work more than that if the husband is learning in kollel. If a family can’t support themselves with a husband in kollel and a wife working part time, is it more important for the husband or wife to have a full time job?

    #894430
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Ideally, one should marry at 18.

    Ideally, one should not take money for learning.

    Ideally, one should pay full tuition.

    Ideally…..

    #894431
    iced
    Member

    Rav Shteinman is one million percent correct. It’s always best for the husband to work and the wife to stay home. In extenuating circumstances (like dire financial straits) obviously she can take a job. Kollel, too, is a worthy tradeoff for her to work so he can learn.

    #894432
    simcha613
    Participant

    iced- it seems that there are two reasons that a woman should be at home and not working. 1. she is the best person to raise her children and if she is not at home to raise them, then they will struggle. 2. kol kevudah bas melech penimah- it’s not really so tznius for a woman to out in the workforce.

    Why would learning in Kollel be a “worthy tradeoff” to allow her to work if it is detrimental to her children, and forces her to compromise on tzniyus?

    #894433
    MorahRach
    Member

    I have worked full time for 3.5 years, now I am a stay at home mom. Out of all my married friends with children, only one other friend stays home. They all have nannies, who speak minimal English I might add. But I agree, a mothers place is with her children! ( if it’s possible)

    #894434
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Why would learning in Kollel be a “worthy tradeoff” to allow her to work if it is detrimental to her children, and forces her to compromise on tzniyus?

    Talmud Torah K’Neged Kulam. Don’t you know the Gemorah that says a woman should sell herself in the Shuk so that her husband can learn Torah?

    (I couldn’t find it either, but it seems to exist. Puk chazi mai amah devar).

    #894435
    alha
    Participant

    Interestingly if you check the kesubah that you give to the kallah under the chuppa you actually commit to provide for her not the other way around.

    just asking would like to know if in history of before WW2 there was also this arrangement of kollel.

    There are mothers that feel stifled being “locked in” all day – going out to work is a way to air out.

    #894436
    iced
    Member

    Simcha: Because of the zchus of Limud Torah, which is greater than everything else.

    #894437
    simcha613
    Participant

    gavra- don’t know where that Gemara is, would love to see it, but it is possible “so that her husband can learn Torah” is not the same thing as “so that her husband can learn Torah full time.” It’s possible that Gemara is talking about a situation where the husband would have no time to learn if the wife wouldn’t help out financially.

    #894438
    computer777
    Member

    Talmud Torah K’Neged Kulam. Don’t you know the Gemorah that says a woman should sell herself in the Shuk so that her husband can learn Torah?

    What a terrible thing to say! Someone might think it acually says this.

    #894439
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    “What a terrible thing to say! Someone might think it actually says this. “

    It doesn’t?

    #894440
    alha
    Participant

    The Gemorah brings that r’ yochanan was a shoemaker {sandler} r’ yitzchok was a blacksmith {nafcho} brings story of r’ yehuda going to check on orchards. dovid hamelech telling the chachomim lechi mefarnesi zeh mezu

    The Gemorah shows that tanoim amoraim were taking care of their family.

    Husband should/has to learn when he has the time & can carry the weight of supporting a family ….. the weight of supporting the family shouldn’t be the wife responsibility. and as mentioned before the chachomim made the husband sign a contract {kesubah} that ” he”will support and feed his wife.

    #894441
    iced
    Member

    Talmud Torah Kneged Kulum. Even though a woman shoudn’t be working, if it is to enable full time Limud Torah by her husband it is more than worth it.

    #894442
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Talmud Torah Kneged Kulum. Even though a woman shoudn’t be working, if it is to enable full time Limud Torah by her husband it is more than worth it.

    Don’t steal my answer! I said it first.

    #894443
    aaron613
    Participant

    There are probably very few women that could live on what the Amoraim and Tanoim lived on that the husband had to support it definitely was not working 12 hours a day.

    #894444
    alha
    Participant

    what about the kesubah mandated by the chachomim ……….

    and the basic questions of kovato “itim” latorah – doesn’t say lomadto kol hayom torah … btw. there are 2 more questions asked were you ehrlich in business and usakto bepirieh verivieh ?

    #894445
    RebRY
    Member

    “They all have nannies, who speak minimal English I might add. “

    What do they speak, Spanish, Ebonics or Yiddish? If Yiddish I don’t see a problem I would rather a kid heard Yiddish then English but I have heard of people leaving their kids with goyish babysitters and I think it is so bad. Why would you leave your baby with a goyte who could be secretly feeding your kid chazir and playing their disgusting music around them? I am all for learning but If you are learning in kolel while leaving your kid with a goyte I think their is something very wrong with you!!!

    #894446
    alha
    Participant

    RebRY great thought,

    Suppose that learning in kollel full time overrides bringing up and being mechanech children – i’ve seen little children talk spanish/russian before yiddish/english.

    Minimum wage – illegal immigrant — you wouldn’t trust them with your car or with a $500 cash deposit.

    #894447
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Ideally, Manna would fall from the heavens, allowing the men to be engaged in torah study all day and the women to be involved with their children all day.

    Ideally, people would ask their own individual questions based on their own individual circumstances to their own Rav instead of relying on reports of what R’ Shteinman may or may not have said to an individual based on his or her individual circumstances.

    #894448
    ThePurpleOne
    Member

    a lot of women need to work not because of money concern but because they need to use their brains a little bit and get out of the house and do somethibg a little more proffesional than feeding a toddler… they can bond with their children from 6-8 in the evenings…

    #894449
    vochindik
    Member

    That’s a krum outlook.

    #894450
    MorahRach
    Member

    Rebry, Spanish! And they were Jewish I would not have an issue! I have friend who employ Colombian, Dominican etc nannies who barely speak English. I’m sure some are great, but I would not trust it!

    #894451
    MorahRach
    Member

    Rebry, Spanish! And they were Jewish I would not have an issue! I have friend who employ Colombian, Dominican etc nannies who barely speak English. I’m sure some are great, but I would not trust it!

    #894452
    interjection
    Participant

    “That’s a krum outlook.”

    Some women need mental stimulation. Shocker, I know.

    #894453
    vochindik
    Member

    That’s okay. But not when done AT THE EXPENSE OF THEIR CHILDREN. “Mental stimulation” does NOT justify abandoning your children to the shiksa baby sitter every day from when they come off the school bus until the evening without a Mom to care for them, because you want to “get out of the house and do somethibg a little more proffesional than feeding a toddler”.

    #894454
    Song of Blessing
    Participant

    lots of judging going on here…

    1. you can’t judge those who get nanny’s. I am totally against it – but some people need it – how do you know? Maybe they’re doing the best thing for their kids coz maybe they have no clue how to take proper care of a child.

    2. I agree that the workplace isn’t the best place for a woman. As a professional – and having had enough experiences in the workplace – it is very hard for a woman to find a place of work that respects her frumkeit – her tznius – and her as a woman.

    3. I disagree with the comment “do something more professional than feeding a toddler”. There is nothing more stimulating or amazing than watching your child grow and evolve to become an amazing human being. If you don’t see that you’re missing out and I feel bad for you. If you need to get out wait till they are asleep and then go out! work in the evening. if your reason is because you’re bored or want to feel good coz your a professional – find a profession that gives you more flexibility and you can work without it affecting your kids life so much.

    4. i don’t see whats the big deal with the spanish/english.. who cares? thats not the point. the point is that this shiksa could be playing her music and saying stuff to your child and RAISING YOUR child.. its detrimental! I know i’m contradicting my #1 – I’m not judging those who do it – but that doesn’t mean I think its ok or would EVER do it myself.

    #894455
    RebRY
    Member

    I was not saying anything is wrong with a nanny I was saying that it is wrong to have a shiksa nanny. When I said Spanish I was saying it in a joking way meaning that they are a mexican shiksa. But of course I hold it is better to speak Yiddish.

    #894456
    Sam2
    Participant

    RebRY: What “of course” is that? Why is it better to speak Yiddish?

    #894457
    Josh31
    Participant

    This is a problem that must be worked out with the men first. Only after men who consider themselves Shomer Torah U’Mitzvos fully accept both in principal and in action the responsibility of supporting their families; should this issue be broached with the women.

    Exceptions will need to be made for some men to learn full time and be supported by the community in learning; but those wanting such status will need to first demonstrate a level of hasmodah (diligence) and achievement and get specific permission to learn full time. In the best case, those learning full time will be supported enough that their wives will be able to raise their children directly.

    #894458
    1818
    Participant

    It is selfish for a man to expect his wife and father in law to keep on working so he can sit all day and learn.

    #894459
    apushatayid
    Participant

    I see an interesting dichotomy that places many women in a cath-22 situation here. On the one hand, those women who are mochel the support written in the kesuba and instead do whatever is necessary to allow their husbands to stay in the beis medrash and grow in torah, all day, are lauded. On the other hand, when those same women who assume the income responsibility and go out and take a job that doesn not allow them to be home, they are told they should be home with their children, and as seen here, even take flak from some people. Realistically speaking, how many half decent paying jobs exist that allow a woman to support her family AND be home with her children, at least most of the time.

    #894460
    besalel
    Participant

    how about this radical and crazy idea: women should do what makes them happy. if working makes them happy and that is what they want to do then working is ideal for that woman and if staying at home and taking care of the kids is what would make a different woman happy and that is what she wants to do then that is the ideal.

    i am pretty sure that is what the Torah expects from us more than anything else.

    #894461
    oomis
    Participant

    Oddly enough the Torah does NOT tell us to do what makes us happy. That is a recent concept of the past generation, really beginning with the 60s feminist movement and leaching into all aspects of life. How many of us have said, “I don’t care what my child does AS LONG AS HE’S HAPPY.” Utter nonsense. We HAVE to care. There are many things that we do for our (and our children’s) benefit that will not make us particularly happy (immunizations for one). We cannot treat people’s egos so gingerly that the main concern and pursuit is happiness, because without responsible action alongside of it, that happiness may be quite short-lived.

    Following the Derech haTorah is what is ultimately supposed to bring us joy and fulfillment, but that joy is not the ultimate goal. That goal is to fulfill Ratzon Hashem. And R”H will lead to our happiness, because He knows what is best for us.

    #894462
    vochindik
    Member

    There are Temeinim today that have more than one wife.

    #894463
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    One to work and one to raise the kids?

    #894464
    besalel
    Participant

    oomis, i completely respect your right to believe as much even though i personally do not subscribe to same. my personal belief is that it is such a core concept to toras moshe to live a happy life.

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