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I recently saw an article here where R’ Shteinman said ideally a woman should not be working in the afternoon so she can raise the children. At the same time, many families need the wife to work more than that if the husband is learning in kollel. If a family can’t support themselves with a husband in kollel and a wife working part time, is it more important for the husband or wife to have a full time job?
Ideally, one should marry at 18.
Ideally, one should not take money for learning.
Ideally, one should pay full tuition.
Ideally…..
Rav Shteinman is one million percent correct. It’s always best for the husband to work and the wife to stay home. In extenuating circumstances (like dire financial straits) obviously she can take a job. Kollel, too, is a worthy tradeoff for her to work so he can learn.
I have worked full time for 3.5 years, now I am a stay at home mom. Out of all my married friends with children, only one other friend stays home. They all have nannies, who speak minimal English I might add. But I agree, a mothers place is with her children! ( if it’s possible)
Why would learning in Kollel be a “worthy tradeoff” to allow her to work if it is detrimental to her children, and forces her to compromise on tzniyus?
Talmud Torah K’Neged Kulam. Don’t you know the Gemorah that says a woman should sell herself in the Shuk so that her husband can learn Torah?
(I couldn’t find it either, but it seems to exist. Puk chazi mai amah devar).
Interestingly if you check the kesubah that you give to the kallah under the chuppa you actually commit to provide for her not the other way around.
just asking would like to know if in history of before WW2 there was also this arrangement of kollel.
There are mothers that feel stifled being “locked in” all day – going out to work is a way to air out.
Simcha: Because of the zchus of Limud Torah, which is greater than everything else.
Talmud Torah K’Neged Kulam. Don’t you know the Gemorah that says a woman should sell herself in the Shuk so that her husband can learn Torah?
What a terrible thing to say! Someone might think it acually says this.
“What a terrible thing to say! Someone might think it actually says this. “
It doesn’t?
The Gemorah brings that r’ yochanan was a shoemaker {sandler} r’ yitzchok was a blacksmith {nafcho} brings story of r’ yehuda going to check on orchards. dovid hamelech telling the chachomim lechi mefarnesi zeh mezu
The Gemorah shows that tanoim amoraim were taking care of their family.
Husband should/has to learn when he has the time & can carry the weight of supporting a family ….. the weight of supporting the family shouldn’t be the wife responsibility. and as mentioned before the chachomim made the husband sign a contract {kesubah} that ” he”will support and feed his wife.
Talmud Torah Kneged Kulum. Even though a woman shoudn’t be working, if it is to enable full time Limud Torah by her husband it is more than worth it.
Talmud Torah Kneged Kulum. Even though a woman shoudn’t be working, if it is to enable full time Limud Torah by her husband it is more than worth it.
Don’t steal my answer! I said it first.
There are probably very few women that could live on what the Amoraim and Tanoim lived on that the husband had to support it definitely was not working 12 hours a day.
what about the kesubah mandated by the chachomim ……….
and the basic questions of kovato “itim” latorah – doesn’t say lomadto kol hayom torah … btw. there are 2 more questions asked were you ehrlich in business and usakto bepirieh verivieh ?
“They all have nannies, who speak minimal English I might add. “
What do they speak, Spanish, Ebonics or Yiddish? If Yiddish I don’t see a problem I would rather a kid heard Yiddish then English but I have heard of people leaving their kids with goyish babysitters and I think it is so bad. Why would you leave your baby with a goyte who could be secretly feeding your kid chazir and playing their disgusting music around them? I am all for learning but If you are learning in kolel while leaving your kid with a goyte I think their is something very wrong with you!!!
RebRY great thought,
Suppose that learning in kollel full time overrides bringing up and being mechanech children – i’ve seen little children talk spanish/russian before yiddish/english.
Minimum wage – illegal immigrant — you wouldn’t trust them with your car or with a $500 cash deposit.
Ideally, Manna would fall from the heavens, allowing the men to be engaged in torah study all day and the women to be involved with their children all day.
Ideally, people would ask their own individual questions based on their own individual circumstances to their own Rav instead of relying on reports of what R’ Shteinman may or may not have said to an individual based on his or her individual circumstances.
a lot of women need to work not because of money concern but because they need to use their brains a little bit and get out of the house and do somethibg a little more proffesional than feeding a toddler… they can bond with their children from 6-8 in the evenings…
That’s a krum outlook.
Rebry, Spanish! And they were Jewish I would not have an issue! I have friend who employ Colombian, Dominican etc nannies who barely speak English. I’m sure some are great, but I would not trust it!
Rebry, Spanish! And they were Jewish I would not have an issue! I have friend who employ Colombian, Dominican etc nannies who barely speak English. I’m sure some are great, but I would not trust it!
“That’s a krum outlook.”
Some women need mental stimulation. Shocker, I know.
That’s okay. But not when done AT THE EXPENSE OF THEIR CHILDREN. “Mental stimulation” does NOT justify abandoning your children to the shiksa baby sitter every day from when they come off the school bus until the evening without a Mom to care for them, because you want to “get out of the house and do somethibg a little more proffesional than feeding a toddler”.
lots of judging going on here…
1. you can’t judge those who get nanny’s. I am totally against it – but some people need it – how do you know? Maybe they’re doing the best thing for their kids coz maybe they have no clue how to take proper care of a child.
2. I agree that the workplace isn’t the best place for a woman. As a professional – and having had enough experiences in the workplace – it is very hard for a woman to find a place of work that respects her frumkeit – her tznius – and her as a woman.
3. I disagree with the comment “do something more professional than feeding a toddler”. There is nothing more stimulating or amazing than watching your child grow and evolve to become an amazing human being. If you don’t see that you’re missing out and I feel bad for you. If you need to get out wait till they are asleep and then go out! work in the evening. if your reason is because you’re bored or want to feel good coz your a professional – find a profession that gives you more flexibility and you can work without it affecting your kids life so much.
4. i don’t see whats the big deal with the spanish/english.. who cares? thats not the point. the point is that this shiksa could be playing her music and saying stuff to your child and RAISING YOUR child.. its detrimental! I know i’m contradicting my #1 – I’m not judging those who do it – but that doesn’t mean I think its ok or would EVER do it myself.
I was not saying anything is wrong with a nanny I was saying that it is wrong to have a shiksa nanny. When I said Spanish I was saying it in a joking way meaning that they are a mexican shiksa. But of course I hold it is better to speak Yiddish.
RebRY: What “of course” is that? Why is it better to speak Yiddish?
This is a problem that must be worked out with the men first. Only after men who consider themselves Shomer Torah U’Mitzvos fully accept both in principal and in action the responsibility of supporting their families; should this issue be broached with the women.
Exceptions will need to be made for some men to learn full time and be supported by the community in learning; but those wanting such status will need to first demonstrate a level of hasmodah (diligence) and achievement and get specific permission to learn full time. In the best case, those learning full time will be supported enough that their wives will be able to raise their children directly.
It is selfish for a man to expect his wife and father in law to keep on working so he can sit all day and learn.
I see an interesting dichotomy that places many women in a cath-22 situation here. On the one hand, those women who are mochel the support written in the kesuba and instead do whatever is necessary to allow their husbands to stay in the beis medrash and grow in torah, all day, are lauded. On the other hand, when those same women who assume the income responsibility and go out and take a job that doesn not allow them to be home, they are told they should be home with their children, and as seen here, even take flak from some people. Realistically speaking, how many half decent paying jobs exist that allow a woman to support her family AND be home with her children, at least most of the time.
how about this radical and crazy idea: women should do what makes them happy. if working makes them happy and that is what they want to do then working is ideal for that woman and if staying at home and taking care of the kids is what would make a different woman happy and that is what she wants to do then that is the ideal.
i am pretty sure that is what the Torah expects from us more than anything else.
Oddly enough the Torah does NOT tell us to do what makes us happy. That is a recent concept of the past generation, really beginning with the 60s feminist movement and leaching into all aspects of life. How many of us have said, “I don’t care what my child does AS LONG AS HE’S HAPPY.” Utter nonsense. We HAVE to care. There are many things that we do for our (and our children’s) benefit that will not make us particularly happy (immunizations for one). We cannot treat people’s egos so gingerly that the main concern and pursuit is happiness, because without responsible action alongside of it, that happiness may be quite short-lived.
Following the Derech haTorah is what is ultimately supposed to bring us joy and fulfillment, but that joy is not the ultimate goal. That goal is to fulfill Ratzon Hashem. And R”H will lead to our happiness, because He knows what is best for us.
There are Temeinim today that have more than one wife.
One to work and one to raise the kids?
oomis, i completely respect your right to believe as much even though i personally do not subscribe to same. my personal belief is that it is such a core concept to toras moshe to live a happy life.
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