June 25, 2015 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #1208689
R’ Kook on Shelo Asani Ishah
“There are two kinds of souls. Those that make an imprint on life, on themselves and on existence and those that carry that imprint and cause it to grow. There are those that grow through their undertaking of making an impression on themselves and their world and there are those that grow through inspiration which is received from outside themselves. Man is superior in his yearning to create and impress and therefore recites the blessing “Blessed is He … that He did not make me a woman.
“Man however has the distinct disadvantage of being limited to the narrow limitations of his spiritual and physical makeup, which can lead him astray from G-ds ultimate plan. Woman is superior by virtue of her receptivity. This superiority allows her to be impressed and inspired by the all encompassing bounty which G-d created in this world. She therefore recites the blessing “Blessed is He … who has made me according to His will. She can aspire to fulfill G-ds will without turning astray.” (Rabbi A.Y. Kook, Olas Rayah, pps 71-72)
Translation from R’ Yaakov Haber’s TorahLabJune 25, 2015 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #1208690
“The Gemara asks a question, if a blind man should wear tzitzis on his garment. He has a four corner garment, does he need tzitzis? Because it says uri’isem oso, ‘you should see it’ and a blind man cannot see it. So maybe it’s patur from tzitzis. So the Gemara says, no that’s no reason because sha’ani tzitzis sh’yeshnah b’riah etzel acharim (Menachos 43a) other people should see his tzitzis. So a blind man should wear tzitzis not really for himself, (but) for other people to see. Now that’s a remarkable thing we are hearing now. It means the tzitzis that you are wearing are not only for you to see, it’s for me to see too. So let’s say a woman thinks I’m not wearing tzitzis so it doesn’t apply. No, it applies to her too. As she sees her boys going around with tzitzis she should see the tzitzis uri’isem oso, you should see the tzitzis uzachartem, ‘you should remember’. And oso doesn’t mean only tzitzis, oso means you see Hashem when you see the tzitzis.”
R’ Avigdor Miller, Lecture, “Forever and Ever”, #952June 25, 2015 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1208691
Joseph, you are contradicting yourself. I thought you said that Rav Kook was treif. Correct me if I’m wrong.June 25, 2015 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #1208692
This isn’t the first time I quoted Rav Kook. I said his nationalism was wrong; I didn’t say he was treif.June 25, 2015 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #1208693
“Rav Berel Soloveichik ZT”L, son of the Brisker Rav ZT”L, used to relate to his students the Chofetz Chaim’s response when he heard of Rav Kook’s position on the chloni soccer players. “Kook shmook!”, the Chofetz Chaim said, dismissing both the man and the position. The story about the Chofetz Chaim – the paragon of Shemiras Halashon himself – is easily confirmed. The person who it happened with was named Rabbi Avrohom Moshe Gorelick, father of Rav Yeruchem Gorelick ZTL, who was a talmid of the Chofetz Chaim and a Rosh Yeshiva at Yeshiva University. Rav Yeruchem Gorelick (who was personally present and heard it directly from the Chofetz Chaim’s own mouth) said the story over publicly numerous times (including at the Yeshiva of South Fallsburg, where his son was Rosh Yeshiva), as did Rav Berel Soloveichik ZTL, Rosh Yeshiva of Brisk. (Rav Berel also related that Rav Kook said about the opening of the Hebrew University, that it is a fulfillment of kimitzion etc. – immediately the gedolim in Poland and Russia organized a protest against this chilul Hashem – and the Chofetz Chaim came in and said Kook shmook and then he left. See “Mishkenos Harayim” 3:1-108.)
And the Chofetz Chaim’s statement is mild compared to what other Gedolim have said about him. Particularly relevant in this context is a letter by Rav Elchonon Wasserman to Rav Yosef Zvi Dushinsky, printed in Kovetz Maamarim, of which a facsimile of his Ksav Yad is readily accessible, where he refers to R. Kook as a “rasha gamur.” This was the eternally loyal Talmid of the Chofetz Chaim, who spent his life disseminating his Rebbi’s Torahs. (When the Chofetz Chaim was considering moving to EY, Rav Chaim Ozer asked him who will take care of Klall Yisroel in Chutz Laaretz if he leaves. The Chofetz Chaim answered, “What do you mean? You have Reb Elchonon!”)
Regarding Rav Kook specifically, I have heard that the Chazon Ish ZT”L used to censor his Seforim by taping or marking over the anti-Torah writings in them. Of course, the Chazon Ish was more able to know what is undesirable and what is not, than the average student. If someone was the biggest Apikores and enemy of Hashem, as long as he would “work the land” of Israel, Rav Kook considered him holy. The soccer players, mechalelei shabbos b’farhesia, were to Rav Kook, “holy”. He did not mean “Tzelem Elokim” holy, but rather, because they assisted the Zionist cause they were “holy”, regardless of their status according to the Torah. Rav Yosef Chaim Zonenfeld ZTL said that he was like a person who is drunk – saying irrational, nonsensical things – and in his case, he is drunk on Ahavas Yisroel. Rav Yosef Chaim Zonnenfeld’s description of him as a “Purim Rav the whole year”. Rav Kook was considered a lone, sad case of greatness gone irrational. A more hard-line position is found in the Teshuvos Divrei Yoel by the Satmar Rav ZT”L (CM 131), where he rules outright that it is forbidden according to Halachah to follow any Halachic rulings of Rav Kook, who he categorizes as an apikores, in any area of Torah. His reasoning is based mainly on the following sources: Birkei Yosef 243:3; Responsa Bais Shlomo YD II:101; Chasam Sofer CM 163; The Gemora (Shabbos 116a).”
Joseph, this is a direct quote of you denigrating Rav Kook, not just his nationalism. (Although to be fair, you just copied it from frumteens).June 25, 2015 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #1208694
Those are citations of various gedolim’s position on him. As you see, they run the gamut. Their positions speak for themselves and don’t need my affirmation.June 25, 2015 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #1208695
If you truly held like those gedolim, you wouldn’t quote Rav Kook.June 25, 2015 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #1208696
But you still haven’t argued anything to support your previous statement.June 26, 2015 5:31 am at 5:31 am #1208697
Q: If tzitizis and teffillin are so beneficial, why don’t women use them? And what do they have instead?
A: The truth. is women do have it, because when men put tzitzis and tefillin, they’re not putting it on for themselves. That’s absolutely not true. Every father puts on tzitzis and tefllin for all of his children and for his wife, too. There’s no question that tzitzis and tefillin are the property of the Am Yisroel. But, more precisely, the family shares in all the mitzvos. So while he’s putting on tzitzis and tefillin in the shull, let’s say, and his wife is taking care of the children at home, somebody has to remain at home – he couldn’t go to the synagogue if she weren’t home. There’s no question that it’s her tzitzis and her tefillin. That’s the way to understand it. It’s silly otherwise! And when he comes to study Torah in the evening, who will babysit? And, therefore, she has one hundred percent partnership in all that the does.
Q&A: Thursday Nights with Rabbi Miller, pp. 189-190.June 26, 2015 5:32 am at 5:32 am #1208698
“This will-subordination of the wife to the husband is a necessary condition of the unity which man and wife should form together. The subordination cannot be the other way about, since the man as zachar has to carry forward the divine and human messages which through every marriage are to be a living force in the household, and to which the husband and wife are in union to devote their forces. Just as the first command of God though addressed to the man was given through him for the woman as well, just as in consequence Adam should not have thrown over the command of God for the sake of Eve but Eve ought to have subjected her desire to the will of God as expressed to her though Adam, so thenceforward the husband was to be responsible for the task imposed upon man by God and to carry it out in his marriage and household.”
R’ Samson Raphael Hirsch, Judaism Eternal, vol. II, p. 58June 28, 2015 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #1208700
אגרות משה (אורח חיים ו:ב.ה): מעיר על מה שפירש רש”י שאשה שפחה לבעלה כעבד
]ועיין ברש”י [מנחות מג:] שפירש בפירוש ראשון על הקושיא היינו אשה, דאשה נמי שפחה לבעלה כעבד לרבו. ולולא דמסתפינא הייתי אומר שצריך למחקו דח”ו לרש”י לומר דברי הבל כזה, דמן התורה הא ליכא שום שעבוד על האשה לבעלה חוץ מתשמיש, ולענין תשמיש הוא משועבד לה יותר דהא עליו איכא גם איסור לאו, ורבנן שתיקנו שמעשה ידיה לבעלה הא כנגד זה חייב במזונות ואינה מחוייבת לעשות רק עניני הבית ולא עבודת שדה ומעט עשיה בצמר שהיא מלאכה קלה ממלאכות שדרכן של בנות העיר בזה, עיין בש”ע אהע”ז ריש סיי פ,’ והמזונות מחוייב שלא לגרוע מכפי דרך משפחתה ודרך משפחתו ובכל אופן לא פחות מכפי שהוא אוכל, וכן שמחוייב בכסות לפי מנהג בנות העיר ולפי דרך המשפחות שלו ושלה דעולה עמו ואינה יורדת עמו ומחוייב לכבדה ואינו יכול לילך מביתו בלא רשותה רק למלאכתו הידוע לה, והבעל אדרבה מחוייב לעשות כל המלאכות שצריך האדם לפרנסה כלשון שתיקנו לכתוב בכתובה, ואף להשכיר עצמו סברי התוסי בשם רי אליהו בכתובות דף ס”ג ד”ה באומר שהוא מחוייב, ונמצא שאדרבה הוא יותר עבד לה מכפי שהיא שפחתוJune 28, 2015 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #1208701
Joseph, you claimed that you are not saying women are inferior. But you keep saying men are superior, and it follows logically tha123`1as
7763June 28, 2015 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #1208702
What I said was that men are spiritually superior in certain spiritual aspects of life and women are spiritually superior in certain other spiritual aspects of life.
A. Let me ask you: Why do men wear yarmulkes? The answer is because Hakadosh Baruch Hu declared, “Atem tehiyu Ii mamleches kohanim ve’goy kadosh,” the Jewish people is to be a nation of exalted Kohanim. As we are well aware, a cap was among the four begadim that the Kohanim were required to wear; it was called a para hamigvaos. It is for this reason that we, too, wear yarmulkes and hats on our heads – to remind ourselves that we are a nation of Kohanim. In ancient times, it wasn’t necessary to wear a yarmulke, for little time had elapsed since Hashem had uttered His eternal declaration. Each and every Jew identified fully with this concept and viewed himself as a Kohen. But as the generations progressed and hundreds of years passed by, there were some Jews that began to forget their status as Kohanim. On account of this, Jews began to place yarmulkes on their heads as reminders. In the morning, we recite the berachah “Oter Yisrael be’tifarah,” thanking Hashem for crowning us with splendor. This berachah refers to the head coverings worn by Jewish men. Notice that the words tifarah and “para” migvaos share the same root. This is because the yarmulkes and hats that we don each day are meant to be reminders of our status as Kohanim and servants of Hashem! By wearing a yarmulke we show that we are yirei Shamayim and loyal servants of Hakadosh Baruch Hu.
It is important for girls to know that leadership rests in the hands of their husbands. This is a very important lesson! Let us think about this for a moment: As we know, men are commanded to perform mitzvos asei she’haz’man grama, time-bound mitzvos. Women, on the other hand, are not required to perform these mitzvos. What is the reason for this difference? The answer is that women have other important obligations to tend to, which exempt her from these commandments. A woman must know that she is a briah shel chessed, she has been created for the purpose of performing chessed. Being a wife and mother is a very significant role, and it requires her to be selfless and totally dedicated to performing chessed! It takes a woman’s entire effort to succeed in being an efficient mother and wife. Investing her abilities in raising children is very time consuming but is a tremendous zechus for her! The Gemara goes so far as to tell us that the zechus of a woman is greater than the zechus of a man. Why is that? Because on occasion a man will do a certain mitzvah for the sake of kavod, in order to gain prestige. Women, however, don’t have any chance to show off, as they are always in their homes and tending to important things. It is for this reason that the zechus of a woman is greater than that of a man, and it therefore stands to reason that a man has to work much harder in order to be found zocheh in the eyes of Hashem. Now, of course, a woman is considered kadosh, holy; every Jew is a kadosh. But she has a different role than a man, and she must realize that. Don’t try to be an Orthodox feminist and do all of the same things that men do! Your job is to be a kosher Jewish woman who serves Hashem in the way that He intended! You must get married, have children, and raise them in the derech haTorah that they should grow to be decent frum Jews! What a tremendous accomplishment that would be! If you do this, you will one day sit on a golden throne in Gan Eden and reap a reward that is no less than any man! Just do it the way a woman is supposed to do it, that’s all. Just remember: A man puts on a yarmulke or a hat in order to resemble a Kohen who served Hashem in the Beis Hamikdash. A woman also has a beis hamikdash – her home. In that beis hamikdash, she needn’t wear a yarmulke – her snood is good enough! This is a woman’s role in mamleches kohanim, and it is Hakadosh Baruch Hu’s assurance that if a woman serves Him like she is supposed to, she will receive as great a share in Olam Haba as any man.
Rabbi Avigdor Miller Speaks, pp. 271-3June 28, 2015 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #1208703
Women already cover their heads anyway.July 1, 2015 10:19 am at 10:19 am #1208706
“The foremost distinguishing characteristic bestowed upon
man is his Divine image, his tzelem Elohim, which denotes
particular qualitative endowments, such as a moral sense, free
will, and intellect. Man partakes of these attributes within
human limitations, while God’s representation of these qualities is absolute. Maimonides embodied man’s likeness to God pri- marily in terms of his intellect (Guide 1: 1). This Divine gift was given to both men and women. “And God created man with His image. In the image of God, He created him; male and female He created them” (Gen. 1:27).7 In their spiritual natures, they were equally worthy.”
R. Joseph B. Soloveitchik Man of Faith in the Modern World, p. 84July 1, 2015 10:29 am at 10:29 am #1208707
In the word איש and אשה. [man and a female man – Editor, Isaac Levy] lay the guarantee for the equality in rank and mutually complementing calling of Man and Woman. As long as man and woman were איש and אשה. there was no need for man to be emancipated from woman nor woman from man, neither could make the other into a slave nor yet into a god or goddess. The first who altered this designation – as indeed our sages remark, in no other language are man and woman designated by words coming from the same root and so regarded from the same trend of thought – brought it about that one man would yoke his woman to the plough while the other would throw himself at her feet.
R’ Samson Raphael Hirsch
Genesis 11 :58
“The change from singular to plural, which we have tried to reproduce in our translation of this first mention of man and woman in the story of the creation, already indicates the full equality of status, nay, the inner unity between man and woman in the conception and the destiny of “man formed in the image of God.” This term embraces both sexes. Only man and woman together make up the idea of “man”, and God created both of them alike without intermediary, and with the same conscious effort of will power.”
R’ Samson Raphael Hirsch
Judaism Eternal II, p. 51July 2, 2015 2:51 am at 2:51 am #1208708
Igros Moshe, Orach Chaim IV #49
Regarding the distinguished (Jewish) ladies who are fighting along with women of the nations of the world in their (social) movement. These (Jewish) ladies are observant of Torah and want to bring their fight to matters of relevance to Jewish law. Some (of these ladies) pray with tallaisim and so on. They seek my view in this matter and how the rabbi of the shul should handle the matter.
Firstly, you must know that it is an essential matter of faith in our Torah that the written and oral Torah was given by The Holy One Himself at Mount Sinai through Moshe Rabbanu, o”h. It is impossible to change even one point (of the Torah) whether to be more strict or to be more lenient. But we were commanded that when there is a time to establish precautionary measures, it is incumbent on the Sanhedrin and the sages of the Torah to do so, by prohibiting certain things. They also may obligate others. They (the sages) must make it very clear that these are rabbinical obligations. Since our dispersion to foreign lands, we lack the power (to make such enactments). However, the wise men of every region (have the power) to make enactments only for their region and only for a short time.
In view of this, the exemption of women from positive time bound commandments is a (decree) of the Torah. Also, the Rabbis never obligated women (in these commandments) since there is no reason to do so. Indeed, there is a reason to exempt women from these commandments specifically for the reasons that the Torah exempts them.
And besides the reasons for the Torah which are unknown to regular people and to the great scholars, and we are required to believe that there are great reasons of Hashem who gave the Torah, (besides this), there are (non-ultimate) reasons revealed to everyone. (In the matter of the exemption of women from positive time bound mitzvahs) the average woman is not wealthy and has responsibility to raise sons and daughters. This (task) is most important work for Hashem and His Torah and so Hashem made each species so that the woman should raise the offspring. Humans are no exception. The nature of women enables them to raise children. Along those lines, it (the burden) was made easier on the women by not requiring them to learn Torah and to perform positive time bound mitzvahs.
(However) even if the order of the world were to change and all women were wealthy all the time and it were possible to give over the children to men and women (to raise them as is done) in our country, the Torah’s law cannot change and neither can that of the Rabbis. It is useless to fight this. Even with the agreement of the entire world, there is no power to change (the Torah) one iota. The women who stubbornly wage war to make such changes are committing heresy.
Women are permitted to perform (certain) commandments for which they are not obligated and receive divine reward for such performance. And also according to the view of Tosfos, (women) are permitted to make a blessing (on such commandments) as is our custom. (It is our custom also for women to be permitted) to fulfill the commandments of shofar and luluv and to make blessings (on these). Therefore, concerning tzitzis, a woman who wants can dress in a garment not designed for men, as long as this garment has four corners to it, and attach tzitzis to fulfill this commandment.
Concerning the wearing of tfellin, Tosfos writes in Eruvin 96, divray hamaskil: myachal, that (this commandment) should not be performed (by women). Tfellin requires tremendous care to keep the body in (halachic) cleanliness and to focus one’s attention. For this reason even men who are obligated in tfellin limit their wearing (of tfellin) from all day to during morning prayers. The Rema holds similarly (Choshen Mishpat, 98:3). Targum Yonason, on the verse: “There should not be a man’s clothing on a woman” (holds) that (women should not wear) tzitzis or tfellin since they are garments of men. Tosfos does not believe there to be such a Targum Yonason. This (performance of non-obligatory commandments by a woman) applies only if her soul yearns to perform the commandment even though she is not commanded. (It is another matter) if her intention is to protest against the Holy One and His Torah. Such a posture is not congruent with the performance of a commandment. Indeed, it is a forbidden act and an act of apostasy. Since (such a woman) is trying to amend Torah law.
You should know that all of this (the exemption of women from positive time bound commandments) is not because women are on a lower level of holiness than are men. While obligation in commandments results strictly from one’s having holiness, men and women, in that sense, are equal in holiness. All the verses in the Torah regarding holiness refer also to women. (This applies from) the beginning (with) the arrangement to receive the Torah (at Sinai). “You’ll be to me a treasure and you’ll be to me a holy nation.” Exodus 19:6. (The subject of this verse is all of the nation of Israel) as it says “house of Jacob” in referring to the women and “tell to the house of Israel” in referring to the men. Exodus 19:3.
Therefore women also include in their blessings the words “you have sanctified us with your commandments.” (Women do this) even when performing commandments for which they are not obligated. (The exclusion of women from positive time bound commandments) is a leniency made by Hashem for his own reasons and not because of any diminution (regarding the women) Heaven forbid. We explained this earlier.
And concerning the obligations between husband and wife, a husband is obligated to treat his wife with respect and a wife is obligated to treat her husband with respect. (Furthermore) many women were prophetesses and subject to the same laws concerning prophets as were the men (prophets). In many matters, women were praised more than the men by the (written) Torah and by the Rabbis. There is no denigration in their (women’s) respect in their exemption from the learning of Torah and positive time-bound commandments. There is no reason to have any gripes.
The distinguished rabbi (of the congregation in question) should explain this every time and be strong and firm in his knowledge that this is all a matter of the Torah and he should correct these women. And after all this if (these women) still stand in their incorrect and stubborn view, (the rabbi) should not allow a single change in the holy customs of Israel.
I end with a blessing for true peace and a good writing and sealing for a good year for the distinguished rabbi and to all that is his, to the whole holy congregation, the men, the women, and the children.July 2, 2015 4:00 am at 4:00 am #1208709
Not all women are married.July 2, 2015 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #1208710
Not all men are married either. So our brocha is that the unmarried women should marry the unmarried men.July 2, 2015 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #1208711
Well, what if they don’t like each other? And what if there’s a reason they can’t get married?July 2, 2015 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #1208712
What if someone doesn’t like his wife, does he ship her out with a Get? Of course not. He should work on liking her. Same there. Those who have trouble finding people they like should work on themselves to start liking more people.July 2, 2015 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #1208713
And what if they can’t get married for other reasons?July 2, 2015 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #1208714
We should daven they should all have a refuah. Some men can’t put on tefilin. Some people have permanent medical conditions that prevent them from ever fulfilling certain things. They’re anusim. We should pray for them all.July 2, 2015 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #1208715
And do you consider their lives to have any value?July 2, 2015 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #1208716
Of course.July 2, 2015 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #1208717
Does leadership still lie in the hands of their (nonexistent) husbands?July 2, 2015 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #1208718
If they live in their parents home it resides in their father as the head of household. If they live alone they call their own shots.December 5, 2016 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #1208719
.December 5, 2016 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #1208720
Joseph, in your own words, what point are you trying to make?December 6, 2016 12:13 am at 12:13 am #1208721
Sharing Divrei Torah relevant to the topic of the thread and recent discussions here. (Such as lb’s new thread.)December 6, 2016 12:51 am at 12:51 am #1208722
Joseph, you haven’t answered my question. I’m not attacking – I might very well agree with you if I knew what your point is. When people bring Divrei Torah, they are generally trying to make some point. What is yours?
LB made the point that women are on a higher level spiritually. Are you trying to say that is not so? That it is so? That there is another side to it? Or are you trying to make another point altogether?
btw, I have been meaning to point out something to you about this thread. If I recall (and understood) correctly, you had said that your point in this thread was not to put down women – your point was that women are not better than men, and you felt that some people think so, so you were coming to show that is not true.
Which is fine, but if that is your point, it seems to me that you should make it more clear, because one could very easily draw a different impression from some of the posts in this thread.
If I recall correctly, most of the posts did fit in with that idea, but the title and OP are misleading. It is known that women have binah yeseirah and are on a higher level spiritually, so by saying that is not so, it sounds like you are trying to put down women, even if that is not your intention.
Is your concern that women think that the fact that they are on a higher spiritual level indicates that they are better than men (which is far from the truth and makes no sense)? If so, then maybe you should make that clear, because I think that many people reading this thread may not realize that and may be getting a very wrong impression.
I think that everyone knows that it is considered better in theory to be a boy since they have more Mitzvos, but if Hashem chose to make someone a girl that means that He wants them to be a girl and they are supposed to be happy with their tafkid and feel good about it and focus on the maalos of being a girl. It is not a girl’s job to focus on the maalos of being a boy – she needs to feel good about herself and her tafkid. So she needs to focus on the sources that talk about the maalos of being a girl. Especially today when most girls have a hard time with self-esteem and appreciating the maalos of being a girl.
Obviously, if she thinks that makes her better than men, that’s a problem. I don’t think anyone thinks that, but I could be wrong. If you think that there are women who think that and your point is to come out against that attitude, then please make it clear that that is your point, but don’t come out against the sources that emphasize women’s higher level. Thank you.December 6, 2016 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #1208723
lilmod, correct, I’m saying it isn’t so (LB’s assertion about higher spirituality, which is commonly heard these days in some circles.) I directly made that point, with details and sources, in the second post of this thread citing the Maharal and many others. And you’re also absolutely correct that these posts are not about putting anyone down; after all how could Torah do that to anyone. And it certainly was never my intent. I also though the title could have been better descriptive after I made it (and could no loner edit it.)
Also, nowadays it has become popular in many circles to put men down. In popular culture, on TV programs, in advertisements and elsewhere, it is popular to make the men out to be imbeciles who are corrected and smartly fixed by the heroine. Even in some frum circles if, for example, you go to a sheva brochos you’ll hear jokes at the husbands expense but never the other way. A speaker might advise the choson that the two most important words are yes, honey, though you’ll rarely to never hear that public advice to the kallah in those circles. Even when teaching obligations these days the focus in some circles appears heavily on what his are to her rather than hers to him. Of course both are equally important to know, but if one skips half of it, then it’s sometimes necessary to stress the parts that this generation is often lacking in hearing.December 6, 2016 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #1208726
You’re a woman, so says she. And you have the extra beans.
What am I about to say?!?December 6, 2016 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #1208727
LF: Huh?December 6, 2016 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #1208728
Oish… LuL, you’re disappointing me… You’re all for the women with all the good stuff… more spirituality.. more bina… I thought you’d be able to guess my thoughts… (I guess maybe, could be, perhaps, efsher, ken zain you don’t know how to operate a joke)December 6, 2016 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #1208729
LF- got it. hey, I never said that women are better in every way (I agree with Joseph on that)…and I certainly never said that I am. (if I had “chapped” that beans = bina, I probably would have “chapped”.)December 7, 2016 2:55 am at 2:55 am #1208730
“Even in some frum circles if, for example, you go to a sheva brochos you’ll hear jokes at the husbands expense but never the other way. “
Joseph: Wow. I’ve actually only heard the opposite. One time, a man was giving a Bar Mitzvah L’Chaim and made jokes at his wife’s expense. It was so awkward. I don’t know if men were laughing because they thought it was funny or because they felt some obligation to laugh.
Joseph: Are you also the Daat Torah blogger?
Joseph: Btw I wasn’t asserting. If you noticed, I was asking what men thought about this perspective, of which I was told. More than anything, it was a survey of thoughts. I want to understand different viewpoints. Questioning them doesn’t make me an enemy. It demonstrates my interest. Yes though I am not going to agree that Hashem made women to be barefoot and pregnant. Only Hashem is in charge of who gives birth. Not all women do.
—Seriously though, where else do you blog?
Thank youDecember 7, 2016 4:22 am at 4:22 am #1208731
Any REAL woman out there?!?
If women had true bina yesaira, wouldn’t they know NOT to indulge in these conversations?!?December 7, 2016 6:13 am at 6:13 am #1208732
Because REAL women are seen and not heard.
Sounds like you know best.
If there are any REAL Men here, you would know better than to chit chat with mixed crowds. BTW your supper is getting cold.December 7, 2016 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #1208733
Joseph: I would like to apologize please.
After looking back at the “Women on a higher level” thread, it does sound like I was stating that women are in fact on a higher level.
I did not mean to say that I believe this is so. Granted it is nice to think that, for being told that also evokes a responsibility to play the part and be content with this role.
However I think that I am just a person and everyone, men and women, are on various spiritual levels. I still want to learn more about what men and women are taught.
Sometimes I wonder if rabbonim are like oracles, where they not only tell us truths but what we need to hear to achieve or become our highest selves.
Also… if women are taught that they are on a higher level and this is not so, then how does one know that being Jewish makes one on a higher level than a nonJew?
Is there really no evidence from our Sages that demonstrates that our souls are just as close to Hashem as other people?
Thanks and please forgive meDecember 7, 2016 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #1208734
LF – I guess there’s a reason everyone thinks I’m a guy 🙂
sounds like you’re the one with the bina yeseira…December 7, 2016 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #1208735
btw, LF, I actually think this conversation has proven to be very productive….more on that later when I have more time.December 7, 2016 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #1208736
LB – you are the best!January 12, 2017 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #1208737
 ???”? (??? ??:): ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???’. ??’ ??? ?? ?? ???? ??????? ??? ??”? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?????, ?? ???? ?? ?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?????, ??? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ?????, ??? ???? ???? ???? (??? ???? ??.) ???? ???? ???? ????? ??, ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????, ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????. ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? [????] ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???’ ?? ??? ??? ?????. ???? ?? ?? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????, ???? ?? ???? ????? ????, ?? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????, ???? ??? ???? ?? ????, ?? ?????? ???? ???, ??”? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ??.January 12, 2017 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #1208738
Joseph: “lilmod, correct, I’m saying it isn’t so (LB’s assertion about higher spirituality, which is commonly heard these days in some circles.) I directly made that point, with details and sources, in the second post of this thread citing the Maharal and many others. And you’re also absolutely correct that these posts are not about putting anyone down; after all how could Torah do that to anyone. And it certainly was never my intent. I also though the title could have been better descriptive after I made it (and could no loner edit it.)
Also, nowadays it has become popular in many circles to put men down. In popular culture, on TV programs, in advertisements and elsewhere, it is popular to make the men out to be imbeciles who are corrected and smartly fixed by the heroine. Even in some frum circles if, for example, you go to a sheva brochos you’ll hear jokes at the husbands expense but never the other way. A speaker might advise the choson that the two most important words are yes, honey, though you’ll rarely to never hear that public advice to the kallah in those circles. Even when teaching obligations these days the focus in some circles appears heavily on what his are to her rather than hers to him. Of course both are equally important to know, but if one skips half of it, then it’s sometimes necessary to stress the parts that this generation is often lacking in hearing.”
Joseph, I never got around to thanking you for making this clear. It’s unfortunate that most people who see this thread only read the title and OP and kind of get the wrong impression.
It was also enlightening to hear your perspective that it is in style to put men down nowadays. That was something I had not really been aware of. It definitely is food for thought. Thank you.
I am curious to know what other men posters think about that. I imagine that it is something that most men wouldn’t admit, at least in real life (which may be part of the reason why it could potentially be easier in some ways for women to get away with putting men down than the other way around) but maybe on an anonymous website they would.January 12, 2017 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #1208739
I do think it’s important to add that I think that many women nowadays are often made to feel the opposite – that women aren’t important, etc. There are many sources that seem to imply that. And that is why women need to have the other sources stressed to them (the ones that talk about the greatness of women) in order to build up their self esteem (which is crucial for one’s Avodas Hashem) and get upset when the other sources are quoted too much or without explanation.
But it is entirely possible that sometimes the opposite happens as well, and in the desire to build up women’s self-esteem, people end up going to the opposite extreme. Both as a girl and as a result of the type of circles I am in, I have seen much more of the first problem than the second. But it is very possible that the second problem exists as well. It is not something I would be likely to know about.
(ps: in case this post gets moderated before the earlier one, this post is meant to follow a longer earlier post).November 26, 2017 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #1411759
ChabadShlucha: I see a lot of misguided reinterpretation of bina yeseira being expressed in the other thread to make Judaism sound c’v to be in sync with feminism. As a Lubavitcher I’m sure you hold much of the Maharal. In order to understand this topic better, I suggest you take a look at this thread which cites the Maharal (and many others) saying that men are on a higher spiritual level than women and have chochma yeseira.November 26, 2017 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #1412066
If I may, here is where chassidus would help you out allot. Once you understand the underlying dynamic of za and malchus- represented by male and female respectively. I’ve you get that, all the disparate maamarei chazal fall in place. From the fact you constantly bring up this topic under different assumed scenarios it seems you are troubled by a contradiction here at trying to resolve it. Maybe this is it: you know Torah is emes and must be good for men and women alike. But it doesn’t seem so some places appear to favor men and some women. And bring a male, if it’s a contest you’d like the male to win. Is that it?
Whatever your conundrum may be, by getting the inner scoop, all these questions fall away.
And that’s why Chabad shluchos who have this understanding are very content to raise their families and put that first, and yet take great pride in it and don’t think of their role as any less than men. At the same time, they also have the balance, with a mashpia s input, to get involved outside the home with shlichus activities as much as possible while keeping the home first. And since we love our role and appreciate it, we are not looking to be rabbas. I sincerely advise you to look up the same book referenced on the other thread, “El nshei ubnos Yisrael,” and enjoy looking up the copious footnotes on every chapter… Hatzlacha!November 26, 2017 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #1412072
@Joseph I suspected I inspired the start of this particular thread, and now I see you kindly wrote me a post to confirm it, I’m honored. In any case my previous statement still stands and of course I respect any authentic Torah source.
But I’m sure you must realize that Chachmei Yisrael always looked out for the kovod of Bnos Yisrael as proved by the motivation behind the ksuba, the reason why they established that weddings should happen on days that avoided the decree of the evil Romans, as detailed in gemara. Yet your posts come across as denigrating Bnos Yisrael. I’m sure with further learning into the underlying dynamics as detailed above, you will come to the same understanding as our holy chachamim and rabbanim throughout the generations.November 26, 2017 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #1412077
And this is what is the real truth: yiddishkeit is the true feminism. True feminism isn’t what the goyishe world promotes, that a woman should prove she is just as good as a man at man’s jobs. It is that she should appreciate, and get the world to appreciate her role.
An example: we have a problem: basketball players get paid more than teachers. Would you say the solution is that all teachers should become basketball players, or that we should create an awareness within the world why teachers should be appreciated for what they do, and get paid more than basketball players?
Obviously, the latter. So to here: the solution to womans role being undervalued isn’t that all the women should become men, as secular feminism would have us believe, but that we should educate everyone as to why the women’s role is so vitally important, as important as a man’s role and I’m certain aspects even more, just as is the case vice versa. This is Torah feminism. And the Rebbe spearheaded that and so avoided this conflict for lubavitcher women way before feminism even took off. And anyone else who learns it.
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