May 19, 2019 12:26 pm at 12:26 pm #1728721
After 100 years it’s time to recognize that the experiment has failed.May 19, 2019 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #1729047
“After 100 years it’s time to recognize that the experiment has failed.”
Good luck with that, you misogynist troll.May 19, 2019 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #1729057
Phil, no need for you to be such a feminist troll. It’s okay if you’d recognize that feminism has been an all-around complete failure.May 19, 2019 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #1729102Amil ZolaParticipant
You’d think his arm would be sore from so much trolling.May 19, 2019 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1729124
With only men voting we’d have had Republicans in charge of both the presidency and Congress for many consecutive decades by now.May 19, 2019 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #1729126
I agree 100% with joe
Most if not all of the world’s problems are due to feminismMay 19, 2019 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #1729131
I’m no feminist but women have been voting in this country for nearly the past century. Can you provide a source from a posek or are you once again spouting fake halacha to express your visceral hatred and disdain of females?May 19, 2019 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #1729142
“With only men voting we’d have had Republicans in charge ”
thats an argument to end men’s right to voteMay 19, 2019 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #1729148
Rav Avraham Kook as well as Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld as well as all the Gedolim were opposed to granting women suffrage.May 19, 2019 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #1729147
I am watching and waiting for the right moment to go nuclear.May 19, 2019 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #1729170
If it wasn’t for women in the workforce men would be earning more money because there are less people looking for jobs
Women would stay home and take care of their children, mitigating one of the causes of addiction, that being a stable environment
Women would know their place and wouldn’t try to be “better if not just as good” as men
I can go on but I’m to tired toMay 19, 2019 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #1729178akupermaParticipant
1. Should women be tax-exempt?
2. Men have pretty much run the world even after women could vote, and they came pretty close to trashing
it. Just look at the leaders who inflicted World War II on us – no women there.
3. Since the primary role of Jewish men is to learn Torah, it would make sense to let women take care of other details like running the government and making money.May 19, 2019 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #1729177blacknwhiteParticipant
Ha! So women should stay home because men are too weak and likely to become addicted? OMG.
Why should the goal be that men should earn more money?May 19, 2019 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #1729205Yserbius123Participant
Perhaps women could count as 3/5ths of a man in regards to Congressional representation? It’s a good compromise.May 19, 2019 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #1729202Yserbius123Participant
I would comment, but I think Professor Quirrel summed it up quite well when he charged into the Great Hall and fainted.May 19, 2019 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #1729201HeargodParticipant
After so many years, why havent we realized that Joseph does not have well formed brain and that the moderators should be censoring him.May 19, 2019 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #1729198
A full century after suffrage was granted, you will not find a posek calling for its repeal or telling women they can’t vote. On numerous occasions I have seen the wives of Roshei Yeshiva, Rabbonim and Rabbeim voting at the polls.
Admit it, you forgot to take your meds again and this is just more of your misogynist, fake halacha trolling.May 20, 2019 12:49 am at 12:49 am #1729228Matan1Participant
“Rav Avraham Kook as well as Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld as well as all the Gedolim were opposed to granting women suffrage.”
All the Gedolim, wow. Joe, if everyone was in agreement, why single out a Religious Zionist like Rav Kook? Seems like an odd choice for you.May 20, 2019 12:49 am at 12:49 am #1729227Matan1Participant
“With only men voting we’d have had Republicans in charge of both the presidency and Congress for many consecutive decades by now.”
So if a woman would vote Republican, can she get special permission to vote? Or maybe we should just ban Democrats, and have politicians appointed by a special board of thought police?May 20, 2019 1:14 am at 1:14 am #1729229
Phil, first you falsely said I couldn’t provide a source from a posek, which I subsequently did (and can provide the maare mokom if you wish.) Now that you were forced down from your position you falsely say no contemporary posek is opposed.
Can you provide any contemporary poskim who rule that toeiva marriage must be illegal? Why would a posek today rule that, which is obvious, when no government will be taking their direction from poskim. Same with women’s suffrage. When it was relevant the Poskim went on the record saying it shouldn’t happen. Now that it’s happened and isn’t about to be reversed, it’s like arkaos.
As to your point that no one stops frum women from voting; of course. The issur was to grant the right in the first place. Once it was granted it’s foolish to throw out half your votes. If they didn’t have the right in the first place, as would be most appropriate, then it would be a non-issue. So, b’dieved, they vote. B’dieved in the sense that they must so that the frum community doesn’t lose half its voice, they must vote; even though ideally it shouldn’t have been a right in the first place.
When the British took over Palestine from the Turks they established an internal voting mechanism for the Jewish community. The old yishuv led by Rav Sonnenfeld ruled women shouldn’t vote, so the British authorities allowed the men’s votes from the old yishuv to be counted twice instead of their women voting. Later, when this arrangement was no longer available (I’m not sure if that lasted until 1948 or some time earlier) the rabbonim in the old yishuv reluctantly permitted the women to vote in other not to discard their voting influence.
In short, it would be most appropriate and ideal if they didn’t have the suffrage altogether. In Torah Judaism and in the natural state in humanity even among the gentiles, the menfolk make the worldly decisions for outside the home while the womenfolk make the household decisions. This was one of the primary reason for the opposition towards women’s suffrage by the rabbonim zt’l as well as the opposition to it that existed among gentiles, prior to the right being granted.
Ideally it would be reversed.May 20, 2019 8:03 am at 8:03 am #1729239
I’m quite aware that suffrage was opposed for legitimate reasons a century ago, just as a Jewish state was. Then both came into being and our Torah leaders had to address these new realities. You enjoy resurrecting these old, decided issues just to spout your fake halachic opinions of what is “appropriate and ideal”, when no posek does so. Your odious intent is to troll, divide Jews and express your disdain for females. It’s time to get back on your meds.May 20, 2019 9:15 am at 9:15 am #1729290
“Can you provide any contemporary poskim who rule that toeiva marriage must be illegal? Why would a posek today rule that, which is obvious, when no government will be taking their direction from poskim. Same with women’s suffrage.”
Just so I understand you correctly, are you saying that any contemporary posek would want toeiva marriage to be illegal, but once the government rules it legal, then it is ok for an individual to get toeiva married?
Otherwise what is the connection to women’s suffrage?May 20, 2019 9:17 am at 9:17 am #1729298
Phil, toeiva marriage and legalized abortion-on-demand also “both came into being and our Torah leaders had to address these new realities” after they were “opposed for legitimate reasons.” Do you “enjoy resurrecting these old, decided issues” or do you rather now accept and support toeiva marriage and abortion-on-demand? Surely as a feminist in good standing you take the position that misogynistic men shouldn’t be attempting to control women’s bodies by denying them their right to abortion that has existed for at least half a century already, since Roe v Wade, or in the case of toeiva marriage came into being since Obergefell v. Hodges.May 20, 2019 9:24 am at 9:24 am #1729344
Men and women should not be allowed to vote, because only children are pure of heart to the extent that they are able to make an honest voting decision.May 20, 2019 9:24 am at 9:24 am #1729346
Phil, the kind of language that you are using (“take your meds”) is damaging and insensitive to the mental illness community.May 20, 2019 9:25 am at 9:25 am #1729353
Feminism is terrible, and it’s the patriarchy’s fault that it exists.May 20, 2019 10:15 am at 10:15 am #1729365
Ubiquitin: No. The point is that virtually all poskim are against toeiva marriage. Both before it was legalized and after. But whereas you’d find gedolei rabbonim encouraging opposition to toeiva marriage prior to its legalization, in the hope that it could be stopped, that became less so once it passed and appears very unlikely to be reversed anytime soon. Of course they still oppose it, just as much as before, but since they think now it’s almost an unwinnable fight in the current environment, they don’t extend their limited energy fighting it.May 20, 2019 10:15 am at 10:15 am #1729410
I don’t take my queues from sick web trolls but from real life poskim and I don’t hear any of them calling for suffrage repeal. If you were sane you’d realize that a person who doesn’t constantly express visceral hatred to females isn’t a “feminist” but a “rational human being”. With the greatest sensitivity to your multiple mental illnesses, if you got back on your meds you’d have a better chance of comprehending that.May 20, 2019 10:56 am at 10:56 am #1729478
“Of course they still oppose it, just as much as before, …”
but for the individual who asks what would the y ay,,,
by toeiva marriage?
by women voting?May 20, 2019 10:57 am at 10:57 am #1729511
If someone came along with a new shitah brought down from Hilchos Melachim from the Mishneh Torah that moishiach may actually be a woman, you’d immediately claim it was the result of a warped feministic perspective rather than taking a serious look at the analysisMay 20, 2019 11:24 am at 11:24 am #1729523
At Matan Torah, it was the women that Moshe addressed first. The women were also the first ones to donate to the Mishkan through their jewellery. And, with the Yitiyas Mitzrayim, as well as with the final Geulah from this Golus, it is in the merits of the women that we are redeemed. So even though Moshiach, as a Melech, must be “may’ochicha” male and not female, he will be taking direction and under the complete influence of his Rebbitzen.May 20, 2019 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #1729538
Ubiquitin: I already explained above why frum women voting is not a stira to the frum opposition to women’s suffrage.
Phil: You don’t hear any real life poskim calling for the repeal of toeiva marriage; which is presumably why you support its continuing to be the law of the land. I, on the other hand, already explained why poskim aren’t banging on the bimas calling for the klal to storm congressional phone lines calling for the repeal of toeiva marriage or women’s suffrage. As such, we speak different languages and further dialog will be fruitless, especially given your potty-mouthed comments in lieu of rational discussion when your point of view has been thoroughly refuted and you’re simply out of any rational debating points.May 20, 2019 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #1729539LOTR92Participant
Joseph, Are you married? If your not maybe you should be. Your position will change very quickly then. Maybe you should also have a nice long talk with your mom.May 20, 2019 12:20 pm at 12:20 pm #1729544LOTR92Participant
Women’s rights started as letting women vote, work in a wider variety of jobs, and get better pay. It changed into the stupidity it is today. Just to be clear I’m anti todays women’s rights movements, and pro what is was when it started.May 20, 2019 12:46 pm at 12:46 pm #1729548
So perhaps you will change your screen name to RebbitzenMoishiach??May 20, 2019 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #1729568
“Joseph, Are you married?”
“Joseph” claims to be married to 3 women and to have 27 children but given the visceral hatred and disdain of females, I’m just a bit skeptical. I posit that our resident, nasty troll is actually a self-hating female named Josephine.May 20, 2019 1:00 pm at 1:00 pm #1729576flowersParticipant
Joseph: what is wrong with women voting? and what is your proof that it failed?May 20, 2019 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #1729606eli levParticipant
WHEN WOMEN WILL BE WOMEN MEN WILL BE MEN or is it vica versa.May 20, 2019 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #1729610
On a serious note, there has been considerable progress among the frum mosdos I have dealt with in the past several years and they are no longer as dismissive of the concerns of the #meto movement within the obvious constraints of Halacha. There is also some great work being done in girls’ schools and seminaries to provide frum young women with an understanding of how to address issues of abuse, subordination and intolerance both as single women and within the context of marriage and the workplace. While some of our regular trollers get off on trying to play their childish word games with women’s rights, the progress that has been made within broad swaths of the frum tzibur is irreversible.May 20, 2019 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #1729624
flowers: I explained it earlier. In Torah Judaism and in the natural state in humanity even among the gentiles, the menfolk make the worldly decisions for outside the home while the womenfolk make the household decisions.
The proof that the changes failed is the horrible mess in the wider world that we see in regards to household relations between spouses in our unfortunate times.
LOT: Coincidentally both my mother and wife agree with my position. But in either event that is irrelevant towards the merits of the points in this discussion, which I’ve explained on both a Torah and rational basis.May 20, 2019 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #1729641
“I already explained above why frum women voting is not a stira to the frum opposition to women’s suffrage.”
no you dint and thats not what I asked.
I’ll walk you through it
you started w/ a pretend position that you dont actually believe “Women’s Suffrage Must End” and brought the following to pretend to back it up “Rav Avraham Kook as well as Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld as well as all the Gedolim were opposed to granting women suffrage.”
Phil pointed out “A full century after suffrage was granted, you will not find a posek… or telling women they can’t vote.” (I removed the part not relevant to this point )
you replied “Can you provide any contemporary poskim who rule that toeiva marriage must be illegal? Why would a posek today rule that, which is obvious, when no government will be taking their direction from poskim. Same with women’s suffrage. ”
I pointed out that this in no way addresses Phil’s question.
It may address why there is no call to reverse the general right of woman to vote. (which was only half of phi;’s response)
But it does not at all answer why you can not cite a single Rav who tells women today not to vote.
Your comparison to toeiva marriage falls apart quickly, as while many dont rally against it, no Rav says well now that it is the rule it is ok to get married
eleh mai tiyuvta d’joseph tiyuvtaMay 20, 2019 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #1729647
“But in either event that is irrelevant towards the merits of the points in this discussion, which I’ve explained on both a Torah and rational basis.”
Josephine is admitting to you that no posek has called for an end to suffrage and that she has nothing more to go on than her usual glib dismissal of opposing comments, a “boich svara”.May 20, 2019 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #1729656
“So even though Moshiach, as a Melech, must be “may’ochicha” male and not female, he will be taking direction and under the complete influence of his
That could be the tikkun for Adam Harishon listening to his wife and eating from the עץ הדעת or maybe that’s why korach will be כהן גדול when moshiach comes since he listened to his wife
😜May 20, 2019 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #1729664JamParticipant
This is a theoretical discussion, an interesting one actually- so why so much negativity in the comments. For all those concerned I can assure you Joseph does not have the power to reverse women suffrage.
It is important to know that women suffrage came together with the feminist movement which was a terrible movement. it did bring good along with it but it is hard to judge if the price to pay was worthwhile… The founding mothers of feminism such as Betty Friedan and her side kicks in later years regretted starting the movement. It evolved into something they did not foresee and had no control over. In a nutshell, they completely downgraded the housewife image, thereby destroying the image and respect we all should have for family structure.
There is also a lot of hypocrisy to be said of this moment. They demanded perfect equality, but in reality they are very happy to be treated differently when it works to their benefits.
-Retirement age for women is earlier than men.
-Women are never included in mandatory drafts in cases of war.
-In cases of custody, court almost always sides with the mother.
There are more examples. This is a complex topic.May 20, 2019 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #1729708
“It is important to know that women suffrage came together with the feminist movement …… The founding mothers of feminism such as Betty Friedan…”
thanks for the fascinating history lesson
Aye, women in the US got the right to vote in 1920 (after calling for it for decades) and Friedan was born in 1921?
nu nu ah kashe oif ah maisae
as you say “This is a complex topic.”May 20, 2019 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #1729801
Hard to deny that once woman got the suffrage virtually immediately clothing start getting immodest ; skirt length start getting shorter, Etc
a further point,
very first president elected promptly after women got suffrage was & is considered to this
today arguably the worst ever :Warren Harding
who was elected disproportionately by women
There was similar trajectory in other countries as wellMay 20, 2019 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #1729805
R yaakov Weinberg is on record having stated more than once
feminism & subsequent offshoots [transgenderism,etc.] is a greater challenge & danger more than
any other travail that we faced over three millennia!May 20, 2019 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #1729806
Phil, et al
Difference between in theory and practical necessity would be expected, correct?May 20, 2019 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #1729834
“R Yaakov Weinberg is on record having stated more than once feminism & subsequent offshoots [transgenderism,etc.] is a greater challenge & danger more than any other travail that we faced over three millennia!”
Harav Weinberg, zt”l, was absolutely correct, those are our greatest challenges. He also stated publicly that while his Rabbeim and other Gedolim decided it was worthwhile for women to work in order to support husbands in kollel, we can’t deny that decision caused great upheaval to our families and to the entire male/female dynamic.
The question isn’t whether women should be able to vote since we’re a century past that decision. The question is whether that right should now be taken away from them; it takes a posek to make that call, not Josephine.May 20, 2019 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #1729832Amil ZolaParticipant
I would say that all but one or two of the posts on this thread are fine examples of mansplaining.
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