Women’s Suffrage Must End

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  • #1728721

    Joseph
    Participant

    After 100 years it’s time to recognize that the experiment has failed.

    #1729047

    Phil
    Participant

    “After 100 years it’s time to recognize that the experiment has failed.”

    Joseph,

    Good luck with that, you misogynist troll.

    #1729057

    Joseph
    Participant

    Phil, no need for you to be such a feminist troll. It’s okay if you’d recognize that feminism has been an all-around complete failure.

    #1729102

    Amil Zola
    Participant

    You’d think his arm would be sore from so much trolling.

    #1729124

    Joseph
    Participant

    With only men voting we’d have had Republicans in charge of both the presidency and Congress for many consecutive decades by now.

    #1729126

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I agree 100% with joe

    Most if not all of the world’s problems are due to feminism

    #1729131

    Phil
    Participant

    Joseph,

    I’m no feminist but women have been voting in this country for nearly the past century. Can you provide a source from a posek or are you once again spouting fake halacha to express your visceral hatred and disdain of females?

    #1729142

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “With only men voting we’d have had Republicans in charge ”

    thats an argument to end men’s right to vote

    #1729148

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rav Avraham Kook as well as Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld as well as all the Gedolim were opposed to granting women suffrage.

    #1729147

    I am watching and waiting for the right moment to go nuclear.

    #1729170

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    If it wasn’t for women in the workforce men would be earning more money because there are less people looking for jobs

    Women would stay home and take care of their children, mitigating one of the causes of addiction, that being a stable environment

    Women would know their place and wouldn’t try to be “better if not just as good” as men

    I can go on but I’m to tired to

    #1729178

    akuperma
    Participant

    1. Should women be tax-exempt?

    2. Men have pretty much run the world even after women could vote, and they came pretty close to trashing
    it. Just look at the leaders who inflicted World War II on us – no women there.

    3. Since the primary role of Jewish men is to learn Torah, it would make sense to let women take care of other details like running the government and making money.

    #1729177

    blacknwhite
    Participant

    Ha! So women should stay home because men are too weak and likely to become addicted? OMG.
    Why should the goal be that men should earn more money?

    #1729205

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Perhaps women could count as 3/5ths of a man in regards to Congressional representation? It’s a good compromise.

    #1729202

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    I would comment, but I think Professor Quirrel summed it up quite well when he charged into the Great Hall and fainted.

    #1729201

    Heargod
    Participant

    After so many years, why havent we realized that Joseph does not have well formed brain and that the moderators should be censoring him.

    #1729198

    Phil
    Participant

    Joseph,

    A full century after suffrage was granted, you will not find a posek calling for its repeal or telling women they can’t vote. On numerous occasions I have seen the wives of Roshei Yeshiva, Rabbonim and Rabbeim voting at the polls.

    Admit it, you forgot to take your meds again and this is just more of your misogynist, fake halacha trolling.

    #1729228

    Matan1
    Participant

    “Rav Avraham Kook as well as Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld as well as all the Gedolim were opposed to granting women suffrage.”

    All the Gedolim, wow. Joe, if everyone was in agreement, why single out a Religious Zionist like Rav Kook? Seems like an odd choice for you.

    #1729227

    Matan1
    Participant

    “With only men voting we’d have had Republicans in charge of both the presidency and Congress for many consecutive decades by now.”

    So if a woman would vote Republican, can she get special permission to vote? Or maybe we should just ban Democrats, and have politicians appointed by a special board of thought police?

    #1729229

    Joseph
    Participant

    Phil, first you falsely said I couldn’t provide a source from a posek, which I subsequently did (and can provide the maare mokom if you wish.) Now that you were forced down from your position you falsely say no contemporary posek is opposed.

    Can you provide any contemporary poskim who rule that toeiva marriage must be illegal? Why would a posek today rule that, which is obvious, when no government will be taking their direction from poskim. Same with women’s suffrage. When it was relevant the Poskim went on the record saying it shouldn’t happen. Now that it’s happened and isn’t about to be reversed, it’s like arkaos.

    As to your point that no one stops frum women from voting; of course. The issur was to grant the right in the first place. Once it was granted it’s foolish to throw out half your votes. If they didn’t have the right in the first place, as would be most appropriate, then it would be a non-issue. So, b’dieved, they vote. B’dieved in the sense that they must so that the frum community doesn’t lose half its voice, they must vote; even though ideally it shouldn’t have been a right in the first place.

    When the British took over Palestine from the Turks they established an internal voting mechanism for the Jewish community. The old yishuv led by Rav Sonnenfeld ruled women shouldn’t vote, so the British authorities allowed the men’s votes from the old yishuv to be counted twice instead of their women voting. Later, when this arrangement was no longer available (I’m not sure if that lasted until 1948 or some time earlier) the rabbonim in the old yishuv reluctantly permitted the women to vote in other not to discard their voting influence.

    In short, it would be most appropriate and ideal if they didn’t have the suffrage altogether. In Torah Judaism and in the natural state in humanity even among the gentiles, the menfolk make the worldly decisions for outside the home while the womenfolk make the household decisions. This was one of the primary reason for the opposition towards women’s suffrage by the rabbonim zt’l as well as the opposition to it that existed among gentiles, prior to the right being granted.

    Ideally it would be reversed.

    #1729239

    Phil
    Participant

    Joseph,

    I’m quite aware that suffrage was opposed for legitimate reasons a century ago, just as a Jewish state was. Then both came into being and our Torah leaders had to address these new realities. You enjoy resurrecting these old, decided issues just to spout your fake halachic opinions of what is “appropriate and ideal”, when no posek does so. Your odious intent is to troll, divide Jews and express your disdain for females. It’s time to get back on your meds.

    #1729290

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Can you provide any contemporary poskim who rule that toeiva marriage must be illegal? Why would a posek today rule that, which is obvious, when no government will be taking their direction from poskim. Same with women’s suffrage.”

    Just so I understand you correctly, are you saying that any contemporary posek would want toeiva marriage to be illegal, but once the government rules it legal, then it is ok for an individual to get toeiva married?

    Otherwise what is the connection to women’s suffrage?

    #1729298

    Joseph
    Participant

    Phil, toeiva marriage and legalized abortion-on-demand also “both came into being and our Torah leaders had to address these new realities” after they were “opposed for legitimate reasons.” Do you “enjoy resurrecting these old, decided issues” or do you rather now accept and support toeiva marriage and abortion-on-demand? Surely as a feminist in good standing you take the position that misogynistic men shouldn’t be attempting to control women’s bodies by denying them their right to abortion that has existed for at least half a century already, since Roe v Wade, or in the case of toeiva marriage came into being since Obergefell v. Hodges.

    #1729344

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Men and women should not be allowed to vote, because only children are pure of heart to the extent that they are able to make an honest voting decision.

    #1729346

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Phil, the kind of language that you are using (“take your meds”) is damaging and insensitive to the mental illness community.

    #1729353

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Feminism is terrible, and it’s the patriarchy’s fault that it exists.

    #1729365

    Joseph
    Participant

    Ubiquitin: No. The point is that virtually all poskim are against toeiva marriage. Both before it was legalized and after. But whereas you’d find gedolei rabbonim encouraging opposition to toeiva marriage prior to its legalization, in the hope that it could be stopped, that became less so once it passed and appears very unlikely to be reversed anytime soon. Of course they still oppose it, just as much as before, but since they think now it’s almost an unwinnable fight in the current environment, they don’t extend their limited energy fighting it.

    #1729410

    Phil
    Participant

    Joseph,

    I don’t take my queues from sick web trolls but from real life poskim and I don’t hear any of them calling for suffrage repeal. If you were sane you’d realize that a person who doesn’t constantly express visceral hatred to females isn’t a “feminist” but a “rational human being”. With the greatest sensitivity to your multiple mental illnesses, if you got back on your meds you’d have a better chance of comprehending that.

    #1729478

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph
    “Of course they still oppose it, just as much as before, …”

    but for the individual who asks what would the y ay,,,
    by toeiva marriage?
    by women voting?

    #1729511

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    If someone came along with a new shitah brought down from Hilchos Melachim from the Mishneh Torah that moishiach may actually be a woman, you’d immediately claim it was the result of a warped feministic perspective rather than taking a serious look at the analysis

    #1729523

    At Matan Torah, it was the women that Moshe addressed first. The women were also the first ones to donate to the Mishkan through their jewellery. And, with the Yitiyas Mitzrayim, as well as with the final Geulah from this Golus, it is in the merits of the women that we are redeemed. So even though Moshiach, as a Melech, must be “may’ochicha” male and not female, he will be taking direction and under the complete influence of his Rebbitzen.

    #1729538

    Joseph
    Participant

    Ubiquitin: I already explained above why frum women voting is not a stira to the frum opposition to women’s suffrage.

    Phil: You don’t hear any real life poskim calling for the repeal of toeiva marriage; which is presumably why you support its continuing to be the law of the land. I, on the other hand, already explained why poskim aren’t banging on the bimas calling for the klal to storm congressional phone lines calling for the repeal of toeiva marriage or women’s suffrage. As such, we speak different languages and further dialog will be fruitless, especially given your potty-mouthed comments in lieu of rational discussion when your point of view has been thoroughly refuted and you’re simply out of any rational debating points.

    #1729539

    LOTR92
    Participant

    Joseph, Are you married? If your not maybe you should be. Your position will change very quickly then. Maybe you should also have a nice long talk with your mom.

    #1729544

    LOTR92
    Participant

    Women’s rights started as letting women vote, work in a wider variety of jobs, and get better pay. It changed into the stupidity it is today. Just to be clear I’m anti todays women’s rights movements, and pro what is was when it started.

    #1729548

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    So perhaps you will change your screen name to RebbitzenMoishiach??

    #1729568

    Phil
    Participant

    “Joseph, Are you married?”

    LOTR,

    “Joseph” claims to be married to 3 women and to have 27 children but given the visceral hatred and disdain of females, I’m just a bit skeptical. I posit that our resident, nasty troll is actually a self-hating female named Josephine.

    #1729576

    flowers
    Participant

    Joseph: what is wrong with women voting? and what is your proof that it failed?

    #1729606

    eli lev
    Participant

    WHEN WOMEN WILL BE WOMEN MEN WILL BE MEN or is it vica versa.

    #1729610

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    On a serious note, there has been considerable progress among the frum mosdos I have dealt with in the past several years and they are no longer as dismissive of the concerns of the #meto movement within the obvious constraints of Halacha. There is also some great work being done in girls’ schools and seminaries to provide frum young women with an understanding of how to address issues of abuse, subordination and intolerance both as single women and within the context of marriage and the workplace. While some of our regular trollers get off on trying to play their childish word games with women’s rights, the progress that has been made within broad swaths of the frum tzibur is irreversible.

    #1729624

    Joseph
    Participant

    flowers: I explained it earlier. In Torah Judaism and in the natural state in humanity even among the gentiles, the menfolk make the worldly decisions for outside the home while the womenfolk make the household decisions.

    The proof that the changes failed is the horrible mess in the wider world that we see in regards to household relations between spouses in our unfortunate times.

    LOT: Coincidentally both my mother and wife agree with my position. But in either event that is irrelevant towards the merits of the points in this discussion, which I’ve explained on both a Torah and rational basis.

    #1729641

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph
    “I already explained above why frum women voting is not a stira to the frum opposition to women’s suffrage.”

    no you dint and thats not what I asked.

    I’ll walk you through it

    you started w/ a pretend position that you dont actually believe “Women’s Suffrage Must End” and brought the following to pretend to back it up “Rav Avraham Kook as well as Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld as well as all the Gedolim were opposed to granting women suffrage.”

    Phil pointed out “A full century after suffrage was granted, you will not find a posek… or telling women they can’t vote.” (I removed the part not relevant to this point )

    you replied “Can you provide any contemporary poskim who rule that toeiva marriage must be illegal? Why would a posek today rule that, which is obvious, when no government will be taking their direction from poskim. Same with women’s suffrage. ”

    I pointed out that this in no way addresses Phil’s question.

    It may address why there is no call to reverse the general right of woman to vote. (which was only half of phi;’s response)
    But it does not at all answer why you can not cite a single Rav who tells women today not to vote.
    Your comparison to toeiva marriage falls apart quickly, as while many dont rally against it, no Rav says well now that it is the rule it is ok to get married

    eleh mai tiyuvta d’joseph tiyuvta

    #1729647

    Phil
    Participant

    “But in either event that is irrelevant towards the merits of the points in this discussion, which I’ve explained on both a Torah and rational basis.”

    flowers,

    Josephine is admitting to you that no posek has called for an end to suffrage and that she has nothing more to go on than her usual glib dismissal of opposing comments, a “boich svara”.

    #1729656

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “So even though Moshiach, as a Melech, must be “may’ochicha” male and not female, he will be taking direction and under the complete influence of his

    That could be the tikkun for Adam Harishon listening to his wife and eating from the עץ הדעת or maybe that’s why korach will be כהן גדול when moshiach comes since he listened to his wife

    😜

    #1729664

    Jam
    Participant

    This is a theoretical discussion, an interesting one actually- so why so much negativity in the comments. For all those concerned I can assure you Joseph does not have the power to reverse women suffrage.

    It is important to know that women suffrage came together with the feminist movement which was a terrible movement. it did bring good along with it but it is hard to judge if the price to pay was worthwhile… The founding mothers of feminism such as Betty Friedan and her side kicks in later years regretted starting the movement. It evolved into something they did not foresee and had no control over. In a nutshell, they completely downgraded the housewife image, thereby destroying the image and respect we all should have for family structure.

    There is also a lot of hypocrisy to be said of this moment. They demanded perfect equality, but in reality they are very happy to be treated differently when it works to their benefits.
    Some examples:
    -Retirement age for women is earlier than men.
    -Women are never included in mandatory drafts in cases of war.
    -In cases of custody, court almost always sides with the mother.

    There are more examples. This is a complex topic.

    #1729708

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Jam
    “It is important to know that women suffrage came together with the feminist movement …… The founding mothers of feminism such as Betty Friedan…”

    thanks for the fascinating history lesson

    Aye, women in the US got the right to vote in 1920 (after calling for it for decades) and Friedan was born in 1921?

    nu nu ah kashe oif ah maisae

    as you say “This is a complex topic.”

    #1729801

    Hard to deny that once woman got the suffrage virtually immediately clothing start getting immodest ; skirt length start getting shorter, Etc

    a further point,
    very first president elected promptly after women got suffrage was & is considered to this
    today arguably the worst ever :Warren Harding
    who was elected disproportionately by women
    There was similar trajectory in other countries as well

    #1729805

    R yaakov Weinberg is on record having stated more than once
    feminism & subsequent offshoots [transgenderism,etc.] is a greater challenge & danger more than
    any other travail that we faced over three millennia!

    #1729806

    Phil, et al
    Difference between in theory and practical necessity would be expected, correct?

    #1729834

    Phil
    Participant

    “R Yaakov Weinberg is on record having stated more than once feminism & subsequent offshoots [transgenderism,etc.] is a greater challenge & danger more than any other travail that we faced over three millennia!”

    Truth,

    Harav Weinberg, zt”l, was absolutely correct, those are our greatest challenges. He also stated publicly that while his Rabbeim and other Gedolim decided it was worthwhile for women to work in order to support husbands in kollel, we can’t deny that decision caused great upheaval to our families and to the entire male/female dynamic.

    The question isn’t whether women should be able to vote since we’re a century past that decision. The question is whether that right should now be taken away from them; it takes a posek to make that call, not Josephine.

    #1729832

    Amil Zola
    Participant

    I would say that all but one or two of the posts on this thread are fine examples of mansplaining.

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