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You can’t give birth while working, so having a family does get in the way.
According to the meshugana courts, you can publicly nurse while working or while on the train or plane.
According to the meshugana courts, you can expose your upper arms, too.
R4: You fail to see a difference in severity between exposing what you suggested and what I suggested?
Hey Joe….Irs not just the courts….the majority of states, including many of the “torah belt states”, have enacted laws giving women the legal right to nurse their babies in any public location. A baby doesn’t care if the mother is at home, on the subway or in shul. When they want to be fed, they let the mother know. Most women typically find some way of nursing their child in a discrete way but thats the mother’s chocie. If something as natural as nursing a baby troubles you than perhaps you need to deal with that issue
GH: Whether it should be done discreetly or not should not be the mother’s choice. It should, by law, be mandatory that it is forbidden to do in public view.
You can give birth while working…
For example, you can give birth while working if you’re the subject of a documentary (or article) and a production company (or journalist) is paying you while giving birth.
If more women (or womyn) were on reality tv, there’d be more Shalom Bayis (please don’t take this seriously).
🙂
Why aren’t public displays of affection illegal?
Right to… in private.
Showers should be limited to once a week in times of severe drought.
In times of severe famine, is it okay to eat your neighbor’s kosher leather shoes?
“If something as natural as nursing a baby troubles you than perhaps you need to deal with that issue”
Say what? There are many “natural” things that should not be done in public.
Difference here is halacha is on the side of the woman feeding the baby. Hilchos erva is different for a nursing mother. (If you don’t believe me ask your rav).
A nursing mother is halachicly strictly prohibited from doing so in public. Especially considering that she can do it in private.
A nursing mother is legally and halachically allowed to nurse whenever and wherever the baby requires. The vast majority do so in a discrete and private manner since this is better for both the mother and baby. However, in rare cases where circumstances dictate and there are limited options for “privacy”, better to nurse the baby than worry about Joe’s or someone else’s visual/erva fragility.
In the Conservative and Reform denominations that may be so. Not in Torah Judaism.
A lot of definitive statements being thrown out here. Not a lot of sources.
Meno:
According to a recent survey, forty-seven states, DC and the Virgin Islands have adopted laws that specifically allow moms to breastfeed in any public or private location. Two of the remaining states — South Dakota and Virginia — exempt breastfeeding moms from public indecency laws, and Idaho is the only state that has yet to pass any similar laws. Currently, the only protection nursing moms have in Idaho is jury duty exemption. I’m not allowed to post the link for this survey of state laws but if you google, you will find same results (or roughly similar since the terminology and degree of exemption from specific statutes may vary by survey). From a medical perspective, there are peer review studies that highlight the importance for nursing moms to nurse when their own and the baby’s needs dictate
Devarim 23:15, Vayikra 19:2 (incl. Rashi), Bereshis 24:65, Tehilim 45:14, Brachos 24a, Shabbos 62b, Rashi on Yishayah 47:2, Shulchan Aruch OC 75, S”A EH 73, Mishna Brura 75:2, Baal HaTanya on Shulchan Aruch 2:1.
Gadolhadorah.
Thanks, but as an Orthodox Jew, I’m really only interested in what Torah sources say. I don’t care what U.S. Law says regarding this.
I have seen on more than one occasion Chassidic women feeding their babies in public, they did so discretely
..”You can’t give birth while working,….”
Isn’t the process called LABOR?!?
You cant give birth while jogging, or working out in the gym either, so I guess having a family gets in the way of a healthy lifestyle too.
RY23, are you learning well from the master? 😜
Pardon me for being crass.. I’m sure there is plenty of medical literature about the dangers of holding oneself back from reliving themselves, yet, noone will advocate doing so in the middle of the mall or in front of others in a restaurant. The discussion is not, should a woman be allowed to nurse in public areas, of course she should, the only discussion is, should government legislate that they be properly covered while doing so.
“I’m really only interested in what Torah sources say.”
So, unless your Rav is reading this thread, you came to the wrong place for an answer.
Joseph,
Bringing 10 bad sources is not nearly as effective as bringing one good one.
apushatayid- Have you ever tried nursing a baby in a public restroom? Not quite as easy as you might imagine. There are no chairs and the toilet seats have no lid. Which means you have to balance on the edge of the seat and keep the baby from hitting the cubicle walls. Some department stores have fitting rooms with a narrow bench but what should a woman flying with a newborn do? Let her baby starve for the entire flight?
Meno: Those sources are all good. Some more direct than others but all definitely related to the issue.
Joseph,
None of those sources discusses nursing in public
“Have you ever tried nursing a baby in a public restroom?”
How did you make the leap from public area to public restroom?
Meno: None of the sources prohibiting murder discuss killing in a high rise tower.
” Let her baby starve for the entire flight?”
To quote Felix Ungar, never assume, when you do, you make a “donkey” out of u and me. You are putting words in my mouth and then questioning them.
@Gamanit
My niece and nephew flew in from Europe three weeks ago with a 3 month old who is being nursed to attend our daughter’s chasunah.
They were on Swiss non-stop from Zurich. Niece discussed it with the stewardess and was given 2 options for nursing with privacy. In non-meal periods they’d let her use a jump seat in the galley and close the curtains while blocking access with a cart. During meal periods she would be permitted to use the lower level crew rest area (this was on an A330 Jet). It worked out that she used the galley 3 times during the flight.GH: Please cite a source for allowing a woman to nurse “publicly”.
Halachic source, I know NYS law.
“the restroom is often the only alternative to a public area.”
So, use the public area and not the restroom. Not everything in the public area has to be done “publicly”. Or do you disagree with this statement “If a woman holds a baby in a baby carrier and nurses the baby while wearing a cape or nursing cover, the only way to tell if the woman is nursing the baby is if you stare”.
While I do think if it’s not too difficult a woman should use a cover, I don’t believe it should be mandated by law. For one, not all babies cooperate with the cover. One of my babies would constantly throw the cover off to be more comfortable (and yes, this was a baby not yet old enough for solid food). I’m imagining an overzealous officer coming by just when the baby throws the cover off and slapping a fine for indecent exposure… not a good idea. In addition if the mother’s shirt is loose enough she’ll be able to nurse modestly without an additional nursing cover. From what I’ve seen women that are dressed modestly tend to nurse modestly as well. I haven’t seen any nursing mother be as immodest as some people are as their everyday wear.
A fine is indeed not a good idea. An arrest to remove the offender from the public to prevent further offense would be a more appropriate response.
I was moderated out
I guess it’s ok to nurse in public as long as you don’t comment about itGH – In your first post you wrote:
“Most women typically find some way of nursing their child in a discrete way but thats the mother’s chocie. ”Then later, you wrote:
“However, in rare cases where circumstances dictate and there are limited options for “privacy”, better to nurse the baby than worry about Joe’s or someone else’s visual/erva fragility.”Those are two different statements and imply completely different things. In the first post, you are saying
that women don’t have to try to nurse tzniusly and they can do what they want. That is precisely what other posters are arguing – the idea that a woman is allowed to CHOOSE to nurse untzniusly when she has the option nursing tzniusly.In the second post quoted above, you changed your mind and decided that you are talking about RARE circumstances in which it’s NOT POSSIBLE to nurse tzniusly.
No one had said they had a problem with that – that was not the topic under discussion,
So which one are you talking about – a COMMON occurrence of women CHOOSING to nurse untzniusly, or a RARE circumstance in which it’s NOT POSSIBLE to nurse untzniusly? Those are two entirely different things. And again, it was the first one that people were taking issue with.
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