Working and Learning

It is indeed a needle in a haystack in the “yeshiva world”. You are more likely to find that type in YU, or by being willing to marry someone who will spend a few years in kollel before taking a job.

“Learning and earning” don’t go together. The rule is to aim for a talmid chacham, which plainly rules out the “earning” part. As for the rest, the shadchan needs to talk with your father about doing his share.

Daas Yochid/Loyal Jew/more-2: you (guys?) are so incredibly wrong. You make arrogant, sweeping generalisations without even attempting to prove it. I take your bilious statements personally because I am a very serious learner who left yeshiva whilst sill a bochur to go to work. I am not YU-type either, just a normal guy who felt that I would gain more from being a learner/earner than from staying in yeshiva. And I am still a very serious learner, as are all the learner/earners I’ve met since leaving yeshiva. We are not, in my circles at least, in the minority. I also fail to see how black hats in any way impact on your seriousness in learning.

If I was you, I would look around for a BT guy. There are tons of them and many of them don’t have the support of their parents to continue learning, so they end up working. Of course, there is also less of a stigma to not work as they didn’t grow up with that mentality.

There is no such thing.

Loyal Jew –

“Learning and earning” don’t go together. The rule is to aim for a talmid chacham, which plainly rules out the “earning” part.

Try telling that to the Navi Amos (farmer), Hillel Ha’Zaken (woodchopper), Shammai Ha’Zaken (builder), R’ Eliezer (naval merchant), Shmuel (doctor), Rashi (vintner), Rambam, Ramban (both doctors), and the list goes on…

JMH: I don’t think you’re getting DY’s point. Yes, we can all agree that the majority of learner/earners are serious learners. What you don’t get is that the majority of working people aren’t learner/earners. And the majority of kollel guys don’t work either. That leaves a mi’uta de’mi’uta that both work and learn seriously.

Have fun finding that guy.

just my hapence

Maybe its time we form such a league because there are many good guys single and married who are serious about their learning and also work. In fact it was only when I started working that I felt inspired to take my learning time more seriously. Its just human nature that when you have the whole day to do something it doesn’t become such a priority. I’m not saying there aren’t serious guys out there, but it is a minority to find guys who learn even 7 solid hours a day in beis medrash. If these guys ever made a cheshbon of how they actually spend their time I think there would be a lot more guys working…

JMH,

If you’re referring to post chasunah, there are plenty. Pre-chasunah, relatively few. And my reference (glad you picked up on it) is a valid one, because people do tend to associate with like-minded and like-acting friends. So “your circles” is not a fair reference point. And I reiterate that I personally admire someone who is able to learn seriously while holding down a job. Your lumping me with the other posters was unfair.

JMH: The OP asked for a serious learner/earner, DY said that we are a minority.

Read the OP again. And read DY’s posts again too. The OP is looking for a learner/earner, and DY says that it barely exists. You are saying that learner/earners are serious. Apples and pizza.

I don’t know with who you are arguing with over here.

P.S. Most of the workers that also learn a little bit (that I am familiar with), aren’t too serious about their learning.

DaasYochid – I had a re-read of your posts, and I think uneeq might be right. I’m sorry. My reaction was a bit of a visceral one; I had a bit of a bad experience myself (see thread on Bet Shemsh incident for details). Once again, sorry. And, just btw, I was a pre-chasuna learner/earner (now post-chasuna…), and the circles I was in had a fair few others too.

Your point about associating with similar types may be generally true, though not in my specific case. I have friends from pretty much across the spectrum, from Sadigur to Chardal to MO to Yekkish to Brisk and further.

And in case you missed it, sorry.

JMH: I always appreciate someone who can man up to the truth, something that is an extreme rarity in the CR.

Just so you know, the apology does NOT extend to Loyal Jew. He/she is wrong, and he/she deserves every word I wrote to him/her.

cantgetit – To quote Yirmiyahu Hanavi: “These are the eyes that have seen this.” As I said, I learned in two of the largest and best respected Yeshivas in the world, I know the system and I know the people in it. It’s basically a conveyor belt, you get on it in kindergarten and 20-odd years later you end up in kollel. You make no effort, you just go with the flow. Or as my mashgiach put it “put a broom in kindergarten and soon it will be a kollel yungerman”.

JMH,

No problem, and FTR, I didn’t take it personally at all, I was just advising the OP of the facts as I see them, and then trying to clarify my point.

And I agree with uneeq.

RD,

It seems that the OP is BY girl (she says a YU type wouldn’t be interested), so unless you’re the “yeshivish” type (and your posts indicate that you aren’t), your profile isn’t really relevant to her question.

I am not interested in shidduchim and am not offering myself as a shidduch, either, lol. I never mentioned anything about a “profile.”

Is there really a dearth of yeshivish men who go to work and are kovea itim, though? OTOH, the shiurim I frequent in the evenings do seem to be full of all married men and there are no single guys there.

A sugestion would maybe be to have a shadchan of hers contact Ohr Yitzchok or a BT yeshiva? They seem to have working-learning guys who come for a shiur here and a seder there.

Why is that??

Answering that question will probably set off fireworks here, but the truth is, it’s because the “yeshivishe” hashkofah is that a serious learner should be learning full time, certainly as a bochur, and several years into marriage as well.

“needs to talk with your father about doing his share”

Torah begins with basic Mikrah.

Who does the Torah obligate to support the wife?

Singleme, read DY’s comment. There are plenty of guys that will go out to work when th time comes, ie. a couple years in kollel, just don’t expect to find them working before marriage. There aren’t really too many expenses that a young couple can get by pretty easily the first few year

A working guy who still learns every day seems to be what she wants.

Those who go to Night Kollel after working all day are the best of the best, and deserve our support the most.

The key should be to find a guy who is more Sinai than Oker Harim. If a guy works, his time to learn must be spent with concrete goals in mind and with an eye towards covering ground, so that he can have a real kinyan hatorah. This has become my approach. I learn Shas, Rashi, Tosafot; Chumash with Rashi, Onkelos, and different parshanim; Mishnayot with Bartenura and Kehati; Mishna Berura; Rambam; Kitzur every day. I have clear goals to master this material and to do chazara on it. My rabbanim are very proud of what I do and say that they wish people in yeshivas did this, since many, if not most, of the bochrim in yeshivas end up not coming out with much knowledge, I am told. If a man has this knowledge of Chumash, Shas, Mmishna, and Halacha, he will be able to teach his children and learn with them, and be the “mara d’atra” of his household, which is a husband’s role. And a man who learns through all of Shas and knows halakha is a talmid chacham who should have the respect of his children and wife.

Singleme,

You should want to be supported by your husband and shouldn’t have to work. A husband should be mekayem his ketuba obligations.

Maybe look outside your comfort zone a little bit. This may be your best bet, and what really matters is the fact that the chosson is interested in growth, learning, and keeping the mitzvot.

If you’re looking for guys serious in both learning and earning a parnassah, I would advise you to look for yeshiva/college guys. Going to college as preparation for getting a job eventually is more widely accepted among serious learners than having a job before getting married. They’ll want to learn for a year or two, but they believe their role as a husband ultimately is to be the earner. I’m not saying that serious learners/workers don’t exist, but if you’re having trouble finding them, this may be a solution 🙂

(Ner Yisrael has some yeshiva/college guys, but I don’t think you’ll find guys there who are working. I don’t know who to contact there, sorry.)

Hatzlacha

Sure, there are quite a few. I don’t claim to know half of them, and I don’t feel comfortable just saying the few that come to mind. If you ask around (think of someone who’s “holding” in these things) you’re sure to get a nice list.