Working and Learning

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  • #607546
    singleme
    Member

    I wanted to know if anyone knows of specific shadchanim who deal with working& learning guys?

    I’m looking for a frum professional(someone who is interested in both their job and learning Torah as well) and it seems to be like looking for a needle in a haystack (do they exist??)

    I heard Ner Yisroel draws that type –who is good to speak to there?

    #916674
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It is indeed a needle in a haystack in the “yeshiva world”. You are more likely to find that type in YU, or by being willing to marry someone who will spend a few years in kollel before taking a job.

    #916675
    shmoel
    Member

    DaasYochid: Are you kidding? Finding a working boy in the Chareidi world is a “needle in a haystack”?! Not by a longshot.

    #916676
    singleme
    Member

    funny you mention YU I’d be open to it but they wouldn’t consider me (on paper our backgrounds don’t match up)

    #916677
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Of course there are plenty of working boys, but most are not all that serious in their learning. The reason is simple. The serious learners are in yeshiva full time.

    I’m sure we all know of some exceptions, but I’m referring to the majority.

    #916678
    Loyal Jew
    Member

    “Learning and earning” don’t go together. The rule is to aim for a talmid chacham, which plainly rules out the “earning” part. As for the rest, the shadchan needs to talk with your father about doing his share.

    #916679
    more_2
    Member

    If u want a college style guy that knows how to learn the reality is you’ll be compromising and looking at a guy who may be shtark but is not nes a blk hatter…

    In the shtarke blk hat yeshivish world The learner/earner guys are majority not qaulity guys.

    #916680
    just my hapence
    Participant

    Daas Yochid/Loyal Jew/more-2: you (guys?) are so incredibly wrong. You make arrogant, sweeping generalisations without even attempting to prove it. I take your bilious statements personally because I am a very serious learner who left yeshiva whilst sill a bochur to go to work. I am not YU-type either, just a normal guy who felt that I would gain more from being a learner/earner than from staying in yeshiva. And I am still a very serious learner, as are all the learner/earners I’ve met since leaving yeshiva. We are not, in my circles at least, in the minority. I also fail to see how black hats in any way impact on your seriousness in learning.

    #916681
    EY Mom
    Participant

    I have no idea of specific shadchanim, but –

    You might be able to find that type of boy in Ner Yisroel, and there are frum boys in YU – like ones from MO backgrounds who became more shtark but whose parents didn’t want them going to a black-hat yeshiva – who might fit into that category. If you can consider a boy who wants to learn for a few years and then work, you will probably find a larger pool in either NI or YU.

    I have no idea how old you are, but maybe looking at an older age range might help?

    May Hashem send you your bashert soon, and much hatzlachah!

    #916682
    uneeq
    Member

    If I was you, I would look around for a BT guy. There are tons of them and many of them don’t have the support of their parents to continue learning, so they end up working. Of course, there is also less of a stigma to not work as they didn’t grow up with that mentality.

    #916683
    Some Common Sense
    Participant

    IMHO, it is rather rare but very worthwhile. I know such an earner/learner and has done more than most full time learners . He has supported his family bekavod and finished Sahs Babvi twice on his own and shas Yershami once, all without daf yomi and artscroll. Most full time leanrers after many years have significant worries that either forces them to live in poverty and suffering on social programs, which are not enough with tuiton, food and housing, or to get a starting level job.

    Good luck and it’s worth the wait.

    #916684
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    There is no such thing.

    #916685
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    JMH,

    Why take it personally? I didn’t say you’re wrong for what you do, I just made an observation that you’re in the minority.

    Redheads are not in the minority in the Red-Headed League.

    #916686
    just my hapence
    Participant

    Loyal Jew –

    “Learning and earning” don’t go together. The rule is to aim for a talmid chacham, which plainly rules out the “earning” part.

    Try telling that to the Navi Amos (farmer), Hillel Ha’Zaken (woodchopper), Shammai Ha’Zaken (builder), R’ Eliezer (naval merchant), Shmuel (doctor), Rashi (vintner), Rambam, Ramban (both doctors), and the list goes on…

    #916687
    just my hapence
    Participant

    DaasYochid – Because claiming we are a minority is just unfair. Sorry, but we aren’t. As I said, ALL the learner/earners I know are serious. You claim that the serious learners are in Yeshiva full-time, but they aren’t. We’re out there and we’re working too. We haven’t formed a ‘serious learner/earner league’ (hence your comparison to red-heads [nice Holmes reference, btw] is invalid), it’s just that every single one of the learner/earners I know is serious. Every single one.

    #916688
    uneeq
    Member

    JMH: I don’t think you’re getting DY’s point. Yes, we can all agree that the majority of learner/earners are serious learners. What you don’t get is that the majority of working people aren’t learner/earners. And the majority of kollel guys don’t work either. That leaves a mi’uta de’mi’uta that both work and learn seriously.

    Have fun finding that guy.

    #916689
    just my hapence
    Participant

    uneeq – Sorry, but he isn’t. The OP asked for a serious learner/earner, DY said that we are a minority. That is, within the group ‘learner/earners’, serious ones are a minority. I was saying we aren’t. I do get that many earners aren’t learners, although the pendulum is quickly swinging, but within context of this discussion serious learner/earners are the vast majority.

    #916690
    WIY
    Member

    just my hapence

    Maybe its time we form such a league because there are many good guys single and married who are serious about their learning and also work. In fact it was only when I started working that I felt inspired to take my learning time more seriously. Its just human nature that when you have the whole day to do something it doesn’t become such a priority. I’m not saying there aren’t serious guys out there, but it is a minority to find guys who learn even 7 solid hours a day in beis medrash. If these guys ever made a cheshbon of how they actually spend their time I think there would be a lot more guys working…

    #916691
    ihear
    Member

    Are u kidding I know tons of guys like that . Very serious guys but they understand that they won’t b handed a silver platter from their in laws and so they either go to collage now or find a way to work somehow . And many of them would if they aren’t already doing it be maskim to do it once they are married … And yes they are in very main stream yeshivas.

    #916692
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    JMH,

    If you’re referring to post chasunah, there are plenty. Pre-chasunah, relatively few. And my reference (glad you picked up on it) is a valid one, because people do tend to associate with like-minded and like-acting friends. So “your circles” is not a fair reference point. And I reiterate that I personally admire someone who is able to learn seriously while holding down a job. Your lumping me with the other posters was unfair.

    #916693
    just my hapence
    Participant

    WIY –

    it was only when I started working that I felt inspired to take my learning time more seriously

    I felt exactly the same way. I’m not saying I wasn’t serious in Yeshiva, because I was extremely serious, but somehow the learning I do now means more to me.

    I’m not saying there aren’t serious guys out there, but it is a minority to find guys who learn even 7 solid hours a day in beis medrash. If these guys ever made a cheshbon of how they actually spend their time I think there would be a lot more guys working…

    Have you been looking inside my head? ;-p

    #916694
    uneeq
    Member

    JMH: The OP asked for a serious learner/earner, DY said that we are a minority.

    Read the OP again. And read DY’s posts again too. The OP is looking for a learner/earner, and DY says that it barely exists. You are saying that learner/earners are serious. Apples and pizza.

    I don’t know with who you are arguing with over here.

    P.S. Most of the workers that also learn a little bit (that I am familiar with), aren’t too serious about their learning.

    #916695
    Toi
    Participant

    JMH- I think your need to not fel inferior is clouding your judgement. I’ve been in Yeshiva with hundreds of bochurim. I know hundreds upon hundreds more. Of all those, there are maybe 50 good learner/earners. Either guys don’t want to leave the beis medrash or don’t want to enter one. I’m not saying you guys don’t exist, but DY is correct, its a small minority among the earners. But i guess it all depends what a “good guy” means. Maybe what you mean and what DY and I mean aren’t the same. maybe clue us in as to what type of guy, specifically, you’re referring to.

    #916696
    just my hapence
    Participant

    DaasYochid – I had a re-read of your posts, and I think uneeq might be right. I’m sorry. My reaction was a bit of a visceral one; I had a bit of a bad experience myself (see thread on Bet Shemsh incident for details). Once again, sorry. And, just btw, I was a pre-chasuna learner/earner (now post-chasuna…), and the circles I was in had a fair few others too.

    Your point about associating with similar types may be generally true, though not in my specific case. I have friends from pretty much across the spectrum, from Sadigur to Chardal to MO to Yekkish to Brisk and further.

    And in case you missed it, sorry.

    #916697
    just my hapence
    Participant

    Toi – Most of the guys who don’t want to leave the Beis Hamedrash aren’t doing it because they specifically want to stay, but because they have no idea how to leave. I learned in two of the largest Yeshivas in the world and can tell you from all the literally thousands of Yeshiva bochurim I’ve met there were maybe 200 or so serious learners. Serious learners are a small minority amongst learners too…

    #916698
    uneeq
    Member

    JMH: I always appreciate someone who can man up to the truth, something that is an extreme rarity in the CR.

    #916699
    cantgetit
    Member

    That is not the case, jmh. The vast vast majority of yeshivaleit and kolleleit are serious learners and want to remain in the Beis Medrash despite other opportunities.

    #916700
    just my hapence
    Participant

    Just so you know, the apology does NOT extend to Loyal Jew. He/she is wrong, and he/she deserves every word I wrote to him/her.

    cantgetit – To quote Yirmiyahu Hanavi: “These are the eyes that have seen this.” As I said, I learned in two of the largest and best respected Yeshivas in the world, I know the system and I know the people in it. It’s basically a conveyor belt, you get on it in kindergarten and 20-odd years later you end up in kollel. You make no effort, you just go with the flow. Or as my mashgiach put it “put a broom in kindergarten and soon it will be a kollel yungerman”.

    #916701
    singleme
    Member

    BTW I don’t really care if he’s black hat yeshivish or any other label you tend to put on the “type” but even without all that the guys seem to be tooo career oriented and arent as into yiddishkeit as I’d like

    I go for YU too b/c they’re also sincere but the one’s who are learned want to go into chinuch or rabbanus it’s a no-win situation If you know of a shadchan who knows the type thats great

    Age wise it gets worse as they get older—less and less yeshiva oriented and more secular

    #916702
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    JMH,

    No problem, and FTR, I didn’t take it personally at all, I was just advising the OP of the facts as I see them, and then trying to clarify my point.

    And I agree with uneeq.

    #916703
    rebdoniel
    Member

    I don’t see the chiddush.

    I work, am continuing with my college studies, and also make time to learn 3 hours a day, in the morning and evening, after minyan.

    Men are supposed to be kovea itim.

    Maybe there are very few men out there who work an honest job and are also kovea itim?

    #916704
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    RD,

    It seems that the OP is BY girl (she says a YU type wouldn’t be interested), so unless you’re the “yeshivish” type (and your posts indicate that you aren’t), your profile isn’t really relevant to her question.

    #916705
    singleme
    Member

    Back to the original question:

    Who deals with the type?

    —it’s not even a type per se’ it’s the direction and strength in Yiddishkiet that makes them both successful professionally and keeping up in their learning..

    #916706
    rebdoniel
    Member

    I am not interested in shidduchim and am not offering myself as a shidduch, either, lol. I never mentioned anything about a “profile.”

    Is there really a dearth of yeshivish men who go to work and are kovea itim, though? OTOH, the shiurim I frequent in the evenings do seem to be full of all married men and there are no single guys there.

    A sugestion would maybe be to have a shadchan of hers contact Ohr Yitzchok or a BT yeshiva? They seem to have working-learning guys who come for a shiur here and a seder there.

    #916707
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    RD,

    I didn’t mean it that way. 🙂

    I don’t think “a shiur here and a seder there” is what the OP had in mind.

    #916708
    singleme
    Member

    so it seems noone knows where they exist? A regular daily shiur/seder going guy (after or before work)

    So many pples fathers do it like you mentioned not so many(if any) in the single guys attend.

    Why is that??

    Has it become the norm if your working youre working and if youre learning youre just learning???

    #916709
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Women are just better multitaskers. So we are able to work and go to shiurim. Men just have a harder time doing so.

    /tongue firmly in cheek/

    #916710
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why is that??

    Answering that question will probably set off fireworks here, but the truth is, it’s because the “yeshivishe” hashkofah is that a serious learner should be learning full time, certainly as a bochur, and several years into marriage as well.

    #916711
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    There’s no such thing.

    #916712
    Josh31
    Participant

    “needs to talk with your father about doing his share”

    Torah begins with basic Mikrah.

    Who does the Torah obligate to support the wife?

    #916713
    singleme
    Member

    Fine, So what if I don’t feel obligated to support my husband b/c I plan on having a family and devoting time to them IY”H.?

    If I’d work full time as I do now…. well ya, I’ll be able to support (prob. wont be able to afford much)

    Am I crazy for wanting to raise a normal family and have a p/t job to Supplement the income??

    Why is it so uncommon?

    #916714
    uneeq
    Member

    Singleme, read DY’s comment. There are plenty of guys that will go out to work when th time comes, ie. a couple years in kollel, just don’t expect to find them working before marriage. There aren’t really too many expenses that a young couple can get by pretty easily the first few year

    #916715
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Single me,

    A serious learner might very well go to work 5-7 years or so after marriage. There are many who will do that, and for the vast majority of their married lives they will be “breadwinners”.

    What you’re looking for, though, is a bachur with a good job who is very committed to his learning. That’s rare.

    #916716
    rebdoniel
    Member

    A working guy who still learns every day seems to be what she wants.

    Those who go to Night Kollel after working all day are the best of the best, and deserve our support the most.

    The key should be to find a guy who is more Sinai than Oker Harim. If a guy works, his time to learn must be spent with concrete goals in mind and with an eye towards covering ground, so that he can have a real kinyan hatorah. This has become my approach. I learn Shas, Rashi, Tosafot; Chumash with Rashi, Onkelos, and different parshanim; Mishnayot with Bartenura and Kehati; Mishna Berura; Rambam; Kitzur every day. I have clear goals to master this material and to do chazara on it. My rabbanim are very proud of what I do and say that they wish people in yeshivas did this, since many, if not most, of the bochrim in yeshivas end up not coming out with much knowledge, I am told. If a man has this knowledge of Chumash, Shas, Mmishna, and Halacha, he will be able to teach his children and learn with them, and be the “mara d’atra” of his household, which is a husband’s role. And a man who learns through all of Shas and knows halakha is a talmid chacham who should have the respect of his children and wife.

    #916718
    singleme
    Member

    just as an aside after “3-4 years” with IY”H having a family,maternity leave And running back to work b/c otherwise we’ll be poor)

    How is it possible for a guy to just pick up and get a successful career after they have no work experience (and college) unless it’s a family business it doesn’t make sense

    BTW I don’t agree with the notion of using govr’t aid to provide –it’s not ehrlich! if you do it without good but leave the govr’t money for really poor unemployed people..

    #916719
    rebdoniel
    Member

    Singleme,

    You should want to be supported by your husband and shouldn’t have to work. A husband should be mekayem his ketuba obligations.

    Maybe look outside your comfort zone a little bit. This may be your best bet, and what really matters is the fact that the chosson is interested in growth, learning, and keeping the mitzvot.

    #916720
    midwesterner
    Participant

    just my hapence

    a penny for your thoughts, minus some change

    Loyal Jew –

    “Learning and earning” don’t go together. The rule is to aim for a talmid chacham, which plainly rules out the “earning” part.

    Try telling that to the Navi Amos (farmer), Hillel Ha’Zaken (woodchopper), Shammai Ha’Zaken (builder), R’ Eliezer (naval merchant), Shmuel (doctor), Rashi (vintner), Rambam, Ramban (both doctors), and the list goes on…

    I guess someone is fulfilling EY Mom’s suggestion to look for older guys!!

    #916723
    CRuzer
    Member

    If you’re looking for guys serious in both learning and earning a parnassah, I would advise you to look for yeshiva/college guys. Going to college as preparation for getting a job eventually is more widely accepted among serious learners than having a job before getting married. They’ll want to learn for a year or two, but they believe their role as a husband ultimately is to be the earner. I’m not saying that serious learners/workers don’t exist, but if you’re having trouble finding them, this may be a solution 🙂

    (Ner Yisrael has some yeshiva/college guys, but I don’t think you’ll find guys there who are working. I don’t know who to contact there, sorry.)

    Hatzlacha

    #916724
    singleme
    Member

    thanks that sounds reasonable…are there other yeshivas that allow college as well?

    #916725
    CRuzer
    Member

    Sure, there are quite a few. I don’t claim to know half of them, and I don’t feel comfortable just saying the few that come to mind. If you ask around (think of someone who’s “holding” in these things) you’re sure to get a nice list.

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