Working boy in Shidduchim

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  • #1765153

    beisyosef
    Participant

    I BH managed to find my zivug, but I have to go on a bit of a rant;
    I hate that people seem to think that all boys have it so much easier than girls in shidduchim. I personally attended college (mixed, but had no social life there) after 5 years of BM, and still learned around 5 hours a day at the time. I am currently enrolled in med school, and growing up I was considered from the brightest boys in yeshiva (not to toot my own horn, just being realistic. I got smicha when I was 22, and finished most of shas when I was still 23 and single). I came from a solid family, my father being a successful businessman who gives a daf yomi shiur, I’m 6′ exactly, and have gotten compliments from people other than my mother (and now wife) on my looks. All in all I was what I would consider a pretty good catch. But still, the fact that I attended college and wasn’t planning on being in kollel long term (I say not being in kollel, and not “learning” because even in med school I learn every day for at least an hour, which may not sound like a lot, but it’s really mesiras nefesh because learning is truly important to me), made it very hard for me in shidduchim. I was redt to girls yes, but they were much less frum than me. I watch movies and listen to non jewish music if it’s clean, but why are those the 3 biggest factors in being frum?! Why not “is he honest” “have derech eretz” “daven” etc??? THe problem in my opinion is that seminaries and BY teach these girls that the only eligible bachelor for them is a boy who is gonna be in kollel at least for a few years (whether it’s in the BM learning or in the CR (both versions) shmoozing makes no difference apparently). I have friends that are similar to me that also have the same problem so I know I’m not an anomaly (yes, I hate anecdotal evidence, but it’s necessary here). In any case yeah, rant over.

    #1765228

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Mazel Tov on finding the right one.
    I am finding your “rant” to be very interesting because you start out talking about how committed to Torah you are despite college/working and build a case for yourself why it is unfair that people write you off for college/working. Then you throw in that you watch movies and listen to “clean” music as if that is just incidental – continuing on about people judging you for working.

    So a couple questions/comments come to mind. Why do you say these girls are not as frum as you? What are they doing that you consider a problem, and why aren’t you just worrying about their honesty and derech eretz?

    Also, in my book (as a mom in the process) “just watching movies” is a comment on the person’s attitude (for lack of a better word) toward voluntary exposure to tznius, kol isha, and pritzus. Do I also care if he’s honest? Absolutely. Do I care if he has derecho eretz? Absolutely. Does that change the importance of accepting a lesser attitude toward the aforementioned things? Absolutely not! No relation one to the next.

    So are you just setting this up to make yourself feel better about the other things you do by pretending the problem is that you work? Or are you trying to put down those who believe these values are important? Or do you really not see that your words are not matching your reality?

    Maybe a bit of honest introspection would help answer your questions and those of your friends and make you feel less in need of ranting.

    #1765244

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @Workingboy

    I understand your frustration.
    Your shadchan did you a disservice in fixing , you up with BY and Seminary girls.
    My sons and daughters are also professionals who finished Yeshiva then colleg and graduate degrees and professional licensing,
    A competent shadchan would have been fixing you up with young ladies pursuing similar goals who don’t expect their spouse to sit in kollel and be supported by others.

    The mothers and fathers network does a better job making introductions for those young frum adults in the professions and business world than the average shadchan can do,
    It’s called networking and it works well.

    My eldest daughter, an attorney in my firm, who also is an RN was set up with a Frum young man in her law school by a female Jewish professor who has taught both of them, though they had not been in the same class together. The professor had got to know both students well and made a great suggestion, They have been married a few years, both work in my firm and they have given us 2 lovely grandchildren so far.

    Mrs. CTL and I were introduced by our mothers who knew each other well. It’s almost 50 years marriage for us. Both mothers knew we’d be college and profession types and had similar interests.

    Over the decades, Mrs. CTL has invited young adults to our home for Shabbos and Yuntif to give them a chance to meet and mix. Sometimes, one of them will find that another isn’t for them, but might be perfect for a specific friend, the connection is made and there have been a number of marriages resulting.

    My negative view of most shadchanim is that they do not really know the young adults. It is not like it was 50 or more years ago when one was likely to be fixed up with someone in your own community, shul, or relatives

    #1765550

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Mazel Tov Beis Yosef!!! 🙂

    #1765583

    beisyosef
    Participant

    First off thank you to all for your well wishes, I’m married for a year now, but just got triggered because of a conversation.
    Syog lchochma: to answer your first question about what makes these girls less frum than me I’ll say it’s based on their overall attitude towards yiddishkeit (i.e. like those ppl that go on vacation to Miami and leave their yiddishkeit in Brooklyn. By yiddishkeit I mean a couple inches of material. Or their lack of respect to rabbonim, always thinking they know better. Even if that is true there’s a way of expressing it in a respectful manner).
    As for your second comment about movies being a voluntary exposure to pritzus, etc, that may be true, but that’s not the point. I know many guys that are ok with watching movies and listen to music they would be embarrassed if their mother heard, but since they are in kollel for a few years it’s suddenly ok.
    As for myself, yes I definitely have room to grow, and if I was perfect I would be sensitive to watching movies if a woman had short sleeves in it. Unfortunately in the world that we live in I see a lot worse on a daily basis so I don’t even realize it. I won’t watch a movie with much worse than what you see on a daily basis (besides, practically speaking who has time for movies? Last movie I watched was almost a year ago…) But yes, you’re definitely correct that I’m not perfect. But I’d like to think I’m on par with the average guy in yeshiva. (I was told many times that if I was in yeshiva full time with a plan on staying for a year or two the girls would break the door down, but I decided to wait for the girl that would accept me the way that I am, and I thank God I didn’t change my life plans).

    #1765584

    Edmark1234
    Participant

    @Syag Lchochma I think you miss the point. He and many guys like him struggle with being considered on the lower end of stock. And the disinterested or handicapped guys who stay in yeshiva are automatically considered to have an advantage to him. And how is it honest for a girl to want a learning guy even though hes half as devoted as many working guys. About the movies, (secret) your typical BMG guy gets exposed to occasion TV shows or what not in the yeshiva dorm.

    #1765586

    beisyosef
    Participant

    CTLawyer: very well said. I love that story about your daughter and SIL!!! And a nurse and lawyer?!?! Ambitious girl! Shep nachas!

    #1765619

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @beisyosef

    My daughter grew up helping in the office. I run a family law practice with specialties in Wills, Trusts, Preobate, divorce, child custody and adoption.
    I never had any interest in personal injury or medical malpractice cases and always referred them out. As my children and their spouses planned to join in the CTL firm, and someday take over completely when I retire, they realized they needed expertise in other areas and to expand the scope of business. Son #1 has an MBA and practices Business and Contract Law. Son #2 Has a Real Estate Brokers License and mostly does development and RE partnerships
    DIL #1 has an undergraduate degree in Engineering and does Patent and Copyright work.
    Youngest daughter saw that there was great room to expand in PI and Med Mal, and that a medical background made sense, Thus the RN choice.
    Son #3 is my shadow and restricts his practice to what I do.
    Daughter #1 has a degree in Psychology and handles divorce, adoption and child custody cases only. She is in constant demand by the local Probate Judge for assignment at the court appointed attorney for children whose parents are in the midst of a divorce. Although court appointed, this work is paid for by the parents at her regular billing rates. Thinhs are different in small town CT than the way it works in NYC, where most attorneys run from court appointed work.

    #1765658

    Mnb098
    Participant

    @beisyosef- “I’d like to think I’m on par with the average guy in yeshiva.” You were watching movies/ listening to goyish music while in yeshiva as an older guy (4/5 yr bm)? In my yeshiva which I don’t think would be considered to be very yeshivish/greasy, a 4/5th year guy doing these things would be a bit scandalous. Don’t think I’m judging you, I’m really not, it’s just that it makes sense to me that these things would be deal-breakers for a lot of by girls…

    #1765753

    beisyosef
    Participant

    Mnb098: I was in pretty mainstream yeshivas, and a lot of guys I know who are now in kollel were ok with watching a movie. I’m not talking about watching mit in zman, I’m talking about outside of yeshiva during bein hazmanim. I may not have been clear: I don’t watch many movies, but hashkafically speaking I’m not anti, and I was always honest with shadchanim that way they would set me up with girls similar to me. Looking in retrospect it may have been a mistake, but BH it all worked out. (also, my main point was abt the working/in college aspect which seemed to have been the most common reason I was given why I would get a no or not get set up as often).

    #1765755

    beisyosef
    Participant

    CTLAWYER: wow. That’s all I could say. Seems like an extremely accomplished family. You must be very proud!!! May you and your wife be zoche to see your grandchildren follow in that path and built batim neemanim b’yisrael!!!

    #1765756

    DBMH
    Participant

    @beisyosef – Thank you for your post. I respect your sincerity and candor. All too often we hear stories of young men and women who have difficulty in shidduchim because they are pressured to conform to what is considered “normal.” I know of outstanding boys who were turned down again and again because they communicated that their goal was to learn for a few years, and then study for a career and go to work so that they could support their family. Eventually these boys were told never to speak about any ambitions to do anything other than learn full-time. Similarly, I know of girls who wanted to build a home with a lifestyle that only a working husband (or a two-income professional couple) could provide. The girls were told to say that they wanted a husband who only learns, whom the wife would support. The whole dating process was a charade, with everyone pretending to want things other than what they really wanted. The attitude of the parents, shadchanim, dating coaches, etc. was, “Just get them married first. Then they’ll figure out what to do.” In some cases B”H the marriages worked out fine. In other cases the couples struggle, in part from continued external pressure to keep up the appearances of being some kind of ideal, fantasy kollel family. I appreciate that there are young adults like yourself who are honest and up-front in the dating process. It gives me hope that well-rounded, self-aware people can succeed. Hatzlacha raba!

    #1765811

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    DBMH – I apologize for saying so but I don’t believe a word you just said. None of it.

    #1765825

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Syag: If you don’t belive that young men and women marry based on either naive or misleading expectations of the other, then you probably have a very limited set of life experiences. The good news is that many of the parties in these relationships built manage to evolve in thir expectations and learn to love and respect their counterparts and build a bayin ne’eman ba’yisroel.

    #1765851

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    GH – not a clue what your answering to. My comment was that that poster fabricated his ‘experiences ‘.

    #1765945

    BneiBarakObama
    Participant

    “the girls would break the door down”. Listen here buddy, your typical Ben Torah doesn’t speak like that and even a devout christian would tell you that your just a tad bit coarse…
    My point is not to bash you but let you know that you have nothing to be upset about that you weren’t matched with the typical Frum girl. Congratulations and all the best.

    #1766007

    PracticalPost
    Participant

    Beis Yosef:
    Where are your friends? There is definitely a need for guys like you. Haven’t been able to find one yet !

    #1765948

    Ravkahanazadak
    Participant

    As I have said to people and posted time and time again.
    There are segments of the haredi community who are facing the huge problem of trying to follow two religions. genuine Torah Judaism where they attempt to serve hashem and fake “stigma judaism” where they worship their peers and random people (yes those are the people I mean when it is said “what will people think”) And yes I believe in freedom of expression but dont believe it is acceptable for aperson to worship two different beliefs which outright contradict each other.

    My

    #1766139

    beisyosef
    Participant

    Bneibarakobama: literally quoting what I was told. I definitely didn’t count that term. I have enough respect for a bas yisrael that I would hope that no Jewish girl will have to be desperate (especially openly) to get a date.

    PracticalPost: the ones I’m thinking of in particular are from Flatbush and one of them is from 5towns. Be”h you’ll find the right one b’karov!

    Alrighty everyone, I really appreciate the response from everyone, but this is honestly taking up more time than I initially thought it would. I will probably not be responding much. Hatzlacha to all of you in all of your endeavors!!!

    #1767462

    ChizukGedarim
    Participant

    Wow! Boys like you are the cream of the crop. I agree with CTLLAWYER, you were being wredt to the wrong girls. There are many, many girls out there who are solid, frum and tick all the boxes of things you were looking for who DREAM of boys like you who are professionals that make time for learning. There are “heimeshe” girls who fit the bill, more MO girls who fit the bill and even BY girls who fit the bill.

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