June 20, 2013 7:00 am at 7:00 am #609736
I find it bothersome that in the ultra yeshivesh yeshivos, the general attitude of bochurim towards the concept of going to work is extremely negative. What bothers me more is that in all honesty the majority of rosh yeshivos/mashgichim/rabbeim will tell you that there is nothing at all inherently wrong with working. And yet your average fallsburg/peekskill etc. bochur can be commonly heard as saying things like “nebach, a Baal bonus” or “oy! He went to work?!” While you might say that this is some sort of bad trend in thinking started by bochurim, I believe the blame belongs in part to the rosh yeshivos. I don’t think a Rosh yeshiva will ever openly speak out against working people, but I do think that because they heavily stress the importance of Torah (which is true!) the bochurim get the impression that working people are supposed to be looked down upon. I think it is possible to stress Torah and at the same time teach that yiden who work are also important and should be respected as such. What does the olam think?June 20, 2013 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #962362
There was an article and letter in one of the jewish newspapers (I think it was Mispacha, but I could be wrong)
Apparently many of the bochrim wish to earn a few dollars during bein hazmanim. The writer lamted that such holy angels should not be lowered to work for a few extra dollars.June 20, 2013 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #962363
Since Hashem told us that we would have to work hard to get our daily bread, it would seem to be a no-brainer. No reason why one cannot learn and work in the same day. Our ancestors did. Rabbi Yochanan was a shoemaker. Should we look down on ANYONE who takes care of his family’s financial needs with honest work? It is about organizing one’s time to accommodate all the important aspects of one’s life. If everyone sat and learned ALL day, who would support the next generation of people who are being brought up to do the same? Or for that matter, who would be making enough money to support the mosdos to which these fine young men go to learn Torah?June 20, 2013 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #962364
It was in yated a few months ago in respnse to a chinuch roundtable discussion.June 20, 2013 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #962365
Looking through Jewish History, this is an entirely new phenomenon. It was never such an overwhelmin number of guys who just say around and learned. There would be the shtetl melamed, the rav and there were yeshivos but a concept of kollel, that so many guys do nothing but learn is a new thing. Its beautiful but in any incredible thing there is an equal negative force i guess, “zeh liumas zeh” so the equal yetzer hara maybe is brining in this negative energy?June 20, 2013 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #962366
There are several problems with today’s matzav. Here are some impressions and observations.
1. A community that drives all the young people to stay and learn cannot sustain itself. There will be no breadwinners, and thus it will bankrupt itself in a short time.
2. Without enough baalei batim with capability of supporting the community causes, there will be greater dependence on public sources of funding. The economy affects this disastrously, as we all witness.
3. The across-the-board guidance that each and every talmid must dedicate himself to full time learning is a gross mistake. Some are appropriate for this; many are not. It is not useful to force a talmid who is not capable to stay “stuck” in learning. He will not succeed, and he will have been directed away from pursuit of a career that would maximize his potential.
4. Dovid Hamelech said, ??????? ?? ???, effectively expressing the expectation that Yidden will be involved in every form of work/business where we can patronize each other. It was a single Tanna that stated that he will teach his son “only Torah”. He knew his child and his ???????, and full time learning was fitting.
5. As our talmidim reach upper adolescence, there is less and less ?????. Many do not succeed at applying themselves at full strength in learning. The self-motivation we eagerly seek is not the rule, but rather an exception. The concept of “learning boy” is as much a myth for the boys as it is for the girls.
6. Our Roshei Yeshivos often hardly know their talmidim. If they did, they would know who was ????? to progress greatly in learning and who not. They would graciously guide each talmid to pursue the “ehrliche baal habos” or the “career talmid chochom” futures appropriate for him. Today’s yeshivos do not have the resources to produce the “ehrliche baal habos” who is ???? ???? ?????, as the concepts of ???? ???? ?? ???? and ????? ???? ???? ??? are frowned upon. One cannot teach the value of working as a ?? ???? then that life is constantly viewed as flawed.
It will take major change in the world of chinuch to produce the conversion back to the value based Yiddishkeit that existed in earlier generations. Today’s system produces kids at risk, streets full of disillusioned children and communities full of adults who are robotic in their fulfillment of Torah and Mitzvos.
?? ?’ ???? ???? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??????June 20, 2013 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #962367
All academic institutions, in all cultures, “frown” on students dropping out and “working” unless it is the right sort of work (e.g. teaching the subject you’ve been studying). If you drop out of a Ph.D. program in humanities and become something un-humanistic, such as a lawyer or a mechanic or a businessman, they are annoyed. You’ve abandonned the honorable and worthy life of scholarship for something as mundane as making money.
In a way not dissimilar for a yeshiva, within a short time, you are a distinguished alumni (even if you never finished a program), and would you care to make a donation?
Do you really think we are all that weird?
What’s different is that they are in cultures in which making money is the highest goal, and we are in a culture in which scholarship is the most respected activity. In their culture, women look down on marrying scholars since they fear poverty. In our culture, scholars are looked up to and have the easiest time getting shidduchim. In their culture, parents worry if “little Jimmy” spends all his time reading and not doing what they consider to be good “boy things”, and in our culture, parents are elated when “little Yankel” loves learning and isn’t really interested in sports or games or getting into mischief.June 20, 2013 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #962368
The reason academics don’t like students “dropping out” of programs is that the students have already invested a lot of effort and don’t ultimately come out with a degree.
There is no such thing as an equivalent “dropping out” of yeshiva because yeshiva has no end date, no degree, nothing to signify a completion of studies (unless you count semicha but I am referring to kollel guys who got semicha along the way years ago).
This, of course, is because we don’t believe in such a thing as a completion of studies. Learning should be lifelong. That’s well and good. But just because a bachur leaves kollel to go work does not mean he is c”v not learning at all anymore.June 20, 2013 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #962369
Actually, the idea of the husband learning and the wife working to bring in the parnassah is not a relatively new idea at all. Ayen the Ran in Kiddushin on “ha lan ha lahu” he brings down that bnei bavel, their wives would be able to work and bring home parnassah, whilst the bnei EY their wives wouldn’t work they would “me’ongot v’einam osot” is the lashon I believe. Not new at all.June 21, 2013 12:19 am at 12:19 am #962370
The vast majority in kollelim, especially in Eretz Yisrael, do not learn with any emphasis on bekiut or actually amassing much torah knowledge. The Torah admonishes in many places that torah without an honest day’s work is fruitless. See Avot 2:2- “Rabban Gamliel the son of Rabbi Yehuda the Prince said, Torah study is good with a worldly occupation, because the exertion put into both of them makes one forget sin. All Torah without work will ultimately result in desolation and will cause sinfulness.”
Most people in kollelim don’t get semikha because semikha isn’t seen as inherently conducive to the goal of “torah lishma” promoted in the Litvish velt. The Hafetz Hayyim, zt”l, didn’t even have semikha until he required it for administrative purposes.June 21, 2013 1:39 am at 1:39 am #962371
Which is it First you say: “All academic institutions, in all cultures “frown” on students dropping out and “working” …You’ve abandonned the honorable and worthy life of scholarship for something as mundane as making money.”
Then you say “What’s different is that they are in cultures in which making money is the highest goal, and we are in a culture in which scholarship is the most respected activity.”
your idea is wrong but at least be consistentJune 21, 2013 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #962372
The Little I know – knows a lot. Your post was well-expressed and made a great deal of sense.
And Rabbi Perfect, despite the wives of Bavel, we live in different times, and no one can live on ONE salary anymore, much less the salary earned solely by women in a man’s world. If men do not go out to earn a parnassah, they are contravening what Hashem made incumbent on them. Im ein kemach…June 23, 2013 3:01 am at 3:01 am #962373
hey oomis- I can introduce you to many young avreichim in my yeshiva, and many more in yeshivas and kollels round the globe, it’s done! Even in todays world!June 23, 2013 3:08 am at 3:08 am #962374
Oh please. I dont know where you get these shtussim from. Not everyone is able to do three sedorim a day or even two for that matter. I guess I went to the right yeshivas.June 23, 2013 3:40 am at 3:40 am #962375
rabbi perfect: I haven’t had the time to check upon this Ran- but how aout the ketubah you sign before yo uget married? How about the possuk in mishpotim and the chiyuv of the Torah? how about the gemoro in berachos 35B? How about the mishne in kiddushin , obligating a father to teach his son a profession? I could continue with the Rambam and what he writes about the ones who earn money from their learning, etc. So, just because yo ufound one Ran , I can show half a dozen of more authoratative sources!June 23, 2013 4:12 am at 4:12 am #962376
I could continue with the Rambam and what he writes about the ones who earn money from their learning
Is that in Shulchan Aruch?June 23, 2013 4:32 am at 4:32 am #962377
Well firstly, I was merely stating that Ran to show that this isn’t a novel idea at all as people were claiming it to be, there is absolutely nothing wrong with somebody learning full time nor is there anything wrong with somebody working full time. Next, there are various other mefarshim that explain that Rambam, most notably the Kesef Mishnah there, look at it, it’s a nice long shtickel, that goes to town, but definitely worth it. Not to mention the Biur Halacha in Resh Lamed Alef. No need to attack me, lol. But if you do, you might as well do some proper iyun on the sugya beforehand including being me’ayen the nosei kelim on the sources you quote lol. But once again, I am not noi’teh either way, if somebody is able to sit and learn full time (and believe me it’s not easy) by all means go ahead! (you have the Rambam’s guarantee that you won’t be forsaken, and you’ll have all you need, ayen the Rambam, last halacha of shmitah v’yovel). If you are unable to, then go and make an HONEST living! That’s obviously the Ratzon HaShem for you! Don’t go one way or the other and bash the other side.June 23, 2013 10:53 am at 10:53 am #962378
Rabbiperfect, we’ve always had full-time learners. What is different is that in prior generations it was the elite; today it is everybodyJune 23, 2013 11:13 am at 11:13 am #962379
Unfortunately the fault is of the Rosh haishivas and Rashei Kollelim. It’s against their intrest that yeshiva young men should leave the yeshivos and kollelim and seek work. Many Rabbis that make their living from yeshivos and kollelim will loose their jobs.
They make a point in putting down working ballei batim, they will discourage yeshiva studants and seminar girls to marry not only working bachurim but even if their father works for a living he is not a “ben torah” in their eyes and not worthy of marrying a ben torah.In some girls seminars in US and Israel only girls of “Bnei Torah” = non working are accepted. The daughters of people that work are considered second hand.
Before the WWII war in Europe only in Lithuania did men learn the whole day and their poor women had to scratch a living, the Polish and Hungarian Jewish men were mostly balei batim talmidey chachamim that dedicated a couple of hours to learn every day but worked or did business for a living. The students of the great Pressborg yeshiva were known talmidei chachamim but most of them had trades or businesses for a living. That is also the custom of the chasidishe in US. Unfortunately the litwishe Rosh Yeshivas dominate in the Yeshiva world (specially in Israel) so they impose their derech on all yeshiva studentsJune 23, 2013 11:38 am at 11:38 am #962380
In general the Non-Chassidish Charedi world is led by Litvish Rabbanim because thats who survived the Holocaust.
Rav Aharon Kotler in the US and Rav Kahaneman at Ponovitch in Israel.June 23, 2013 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #962381
DaasYochid; you are certainly referring to another thread snd my comments about the shulchan aruch. BTW- is the kesubah good enough for you? Is the obligation of a man to feed his family in the shulchan aruch? of course, it is.
RabbiPerfect: I know the kesef mishne pretty well and also many of the later meforshim. Whichever way you turn, however, there is absolutely no acharon who will condone that everyone should rely on the klal-until these last fifty years. Suddenly, it is found a “chiyuv’ for everyone to learn all the time and ignore the most basic of Torah obligations. This is the first time in our history that this is so- and the whole house of cards in is collapsing.June 23, 2013 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #962382
Many of the bochurim who think that are just being immature and will grow out of it – they just want to feel good about themselves so they blow musser shmuessin out of proportion. what annoys me a lot more is when older people who should know better(and certain rabbonim) have the attitude that baal habatim are all am haratzim and avaryanim. my r”y actually said that it is absolute kefira to say that everyone is meant to learn and that no one is supposed to work. The problem additionally is that if anyone here understands economics everyone who is working is paying for the people who are learning through the price of tuition among other things. Not that there is an issue with supporting torah but the people who are learning should have a certain amount of hakaras hatov to those who are working. The problem is ironically that so many of the people learning today do not have rebbeim that they go to so they never know when its time to leave the beis medrash.
it is specifically young avreichim who can live like that – what happens when they get older and have a bunch of kids to support… life becomes a lot more complicated and just relying on the parents to work into their 70s is not a solution. The stories of such people are many.June 23, 2013 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #962383
hey oomis- I can introduce you to many young avreichim in my yeshiva, and many more in yeshivas and kollels round the globe, it’s done! Even in todays world!”
And there are many more young wives who feel incredibly stressed by having to do EVERYTHING, their job AND their husband’s job, by taking care of the house, family, and parnassah. I don’t believe too many of them realized what they were signing on for, and are nwo too embarrassed to admit that the Kolle life is not all they fantasized and romaticized it to be. This is not to say that it is not good for SOME avreichim. And all those for whom it DOES work, have SOMEONE (who did not go to Kollel, but earned a parnassah all his life) supporting him, otherwise he could not do it. So why is his learning more important than his Shver’s, who is at a time in his life when HE could and should be spending time learning all day, or at least much more than he was able to do all those years prior?June 23, 2013 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #962384
I believe enough has been said.
Thank youJune 23, 2013 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #962385
I was in a few yeshivas, and am still in Yeshivah B’H and not once was I told in private or in public (shmuessen) that we shouldn’t marry the daughter of a working man, not once did I hear that balebatim are “bad” or anything of the sort. The shmuessen always contained chizuk of the “we’re holding up the world, it’s our zechus, we’re really fighting the war, etc.” type of thing, but never did they put down the balebatim. And do you really see everyone sitting and learning? B’H there are a LOT more people doing it, but it’s definitely not the majority. Even for these young people getting married it’s usually just a year for them to be “yotze” but nowhere near the majority of the velt. I don’t understand why people are getting so offended and going on the defensive (with a strong offense) as if you feel guilty. There is no, nor should there be, any reason for anyone to feel guilty over going to work, or going to learn. Both are great! I think the only thing the Roshei Yeshiva might be stressing is that if a person can STILL learn, maybe he should, and they might frown upon going to work when he “doesn’t have to yet”. But nobody is bashing one side or the other. They’re talui ze baze. (Im ein kemach ein Torah, Im ein Torah, ein Kemach)June 23, 2013 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #962386
DaasYochid; you are certainly referring to another thread snd my comments about the shulchan aruch.
Indeed, especially since R’ Yosef Karo disagrees with the Ramba”m you refer to.
It’s fair to assume that he (as well as all who disagreed with that Ramba”m) are aware of the concept of kesubah. I’ll leave you to figure out why using the kesubah in this context is utter folly.June 23, 2013 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #962387
DaasYochid: You are talking apples and oranges here. TheRambam maintains that you should never make money off the Torah- he has harsh words against this. He believes that everyone should have a profession and that Torah should be learned and taught without any reward. The Kesef Mishneh -and subsequent acharonim- maintain that it is very difficult for a talmid chochom to make a living without using his Torah knoweldge for that. Hence, says the Kesef Mishne, one CAN use one’s Torah to earn a living- as teacher, Rav or otherwise. That is the gist of their differences.
However, nowhere does the Kessef Mishneh -or any other Possek- allow people to avoid their obligations under the kessubah, gemoro,mishne…etc. Nowhere does the Bais Yossef condone a system where tens of thousands of people rely upon others for decades.At the absolute limit ,there is a concept of “asoroh batlonim” but not “rivvevos batlonim”. So, your point is misleading because the machlokes of the Rambam and the other rishonim has nothing to do with working and feeding one’s family.June 23, 2013 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #962388
You still don’t get it.
One word: mechilah.June 23, 2013 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #962389
It is terrible that the Yeshiva world frowns on anything other than learning.
1. It is a shortcoming on the Yeshiva world themselves, because it limits their own understanding.
2. It deprives their talmidim who are going to pursue careers the opportunity to maintain their connection with the Yeshiva world.
3. It leads to grotesque results, like the Baalhabatim in Lakewood who delude themselves into believing that they are still yeshivaleit, and kvetch about their kids not getting into Beis Shprintza.June 24, 2013 2:51 am at 2:51 am #962390
DaasYochid: I am clueless as to what you mean.June 24, 2013 3:19 am at 3:19 am #962395
The kesubah is a monetary contract between two parties. The man, among other things, obligates himself to provide financial support for his wife. If she wishes, she can forgive (temporarily or permanently) this obligation. This is what occurs in the vast majority of kollel families.
The kesubah is NOT some type of religious obligation to work which would obligate the husband regardless of the wife’s wishes.June 24, 2013 3:23 am at 3:23 am #962396
The analogy to doctorates in the humanities is interesting but off the mark, in my opinion.
Most individuals who earn PhD’s — especially in the humanities — will not find gainful employment
as tenure track assistant professors. Those who do find such job will overwhelmingly find jobs at teaching oriented colleges (where research is not a main criteria for advancement and tenure). Their role is essentially as a me’chanech. They teach many classes, grade hundreds of exams and (pporly written) papers and do a little bit of research. The few who are hired at research universities have the expectation to both teach and do scholarship. Of these, a very small percentage will rise and become professors whose main “job” is to think and write. These are the super scholars and they are under great pressure to keep turning out books (with first rate presses) to demonstrate their worth and to justify why they have limited teaching loads. Perhaps this could be a model for the Kollel system. It preserves the special privileges to the truly outstanding and hard working scholars, and (as long as some accountability is built into the system) allows others who are talented but not brilliant to move to teaching positions in respectable yeshivas (each according to his ability). Finally, those who are not cut out for it can move along to other pursuits.June 24, 2013 4:26 am at 4:26 am #962397
Regardless of the wife’s Mechilah (forgiveness of obligation); if a guy does not actually work and does not actually learn he becomes Posul L’edus (invalid as a witness according to Jewish law).
The wife can always withdraw the Mechilah; and a Mechilah made under any deception is not a valid Mechilah.
Teaching women that a working boy is a second class Jew is deception. Jewish women have to know that for 3000 plus years that the Jewish norm is that men support their families.
The first and most important element of Kol Kevudah Bas Melech Penima is a husband fully supporting the family.June 24, 2013 4:31 am at 4:31 am #962398
What Yitz46 said. The only parallel that could be made between learning in kollel and scholarship in the humanities is that no one thinks it is worthwhile except the people who value such knowledge, and there are lots of people who would be relieved to see you “snap out of it” and get a “real” job. But as for scholarship in the humanities, there are no free lunches whatsoever, and even at the top of the food chain (which few manage to reach), there’s a tremendous pressure to keep your name in publication. So I have heard from the English chair of my college (I’m an English major).June 24, 2013 7:55 am at 7:55 am #962399
ROB is 100% correct. A husband is halakhically obligated to support his wife, and not the other way around. The ketuba is written as such for a reason. Whenever I watch All in the Family, I shudder at the thought of the wife supporting the husband while he’s in school, and I look with tremendous respect upon men such as my girlfriend’s opa; he went to CCNY for engineering in the early 60s while working a full-time job as a factory worker in order to support his kallah. That is a man I admire, and who embodied his halakhic duties. And, he made time to learn a couple of hours a day, on top of that.June 24, 2013 11:08 am at 11:08 am #962400
DaasYochid: You are being disingenious. The vast majority of women whose husbands are in kollel now do not “forgive’ their husbands the obligation to feed the family. To say that a woman with 5-6 kids (and more) is “mochel” her husband his obligation to feed his family is sophistry. Certainly, some of these men do deserve to continue their studies but the vast majority would gladly change their lives for a normal life where she can take of the house and kids and he works-as has been done for millenia. And what do you make of the “religious obligation” of a father having to teach his son a profession? Should I quote you the maamar chazal that says that someone without a profession will ultimately end being a robber? There are countless of examples by chazal and the rishonim who maintain that the norm is for husbands to go and work. Anything else is a house of cards that will ultlimately collapse-as it is now doing in Eretz Ysroel.June 24, 2013 12:30 pm at 12:30 pm #962401
You are leveling a viscous, unsubstantiated charge, that the women aren’t willing partners in their husbands’ learning. I hope it’s more from ignorance than intolerance.
As for the gemara regarding teaching a profession, you have already admitted that you need to learn more, and it shows again.June 24, 2013 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #962402
I wonder at the discrepancy between the learning hours of the full time yeshiva bochur and that of the Kollel yungerman. It is with the recognition that the yungerman has responsibilities to the home (wife and children), and may have limited hours to be available for those duties. Yet, most kollelim have extremely light schedules, with most sedorim being shorter that that of the yeshiva bochur.
The true Kollel yungerman manages to make the extra hours without detracting from home responsibilities. What percentage of Kollelim are filled with these youngerleit, and how many have non-dedicated young men hiding from being baalei parnosoh?June 24, 2013 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #962403
When i started shidduchim, i was still in the mindset that a learning boy is the way to go. I’m glad I had the seichel to realize that I’m not cut out to live a life of struggling to support my family, running from gemach to gemach, begging school administrations for discounts on tuition, racking up a bill at the grocery, depending on my parents support until they physically cant work anymore, etc.. I do have an ahavas hatorah and i do respect those that learn. I do realize that we need people to learn to keep this world going.
But i also realize that I do not want to be a taker. I want to be independant and have the learning too. Unfortunately nowadays one needs to have 2 working parents in order to stay afloat.
Yes i work 1 and half jobs, yes i take care of my young children, yes i take care of running the house, my husband learns and works too. unfortunately we still need a break in tuition BUT we can pay our bills in full and on time, b”h. I’m not trying to brag, just trying to open up others minds that it is ok in fact it is a blessing to be able to support YOURSELF. Even if you work ful time, you can have a seder at night.
Isnt the Daf Yomi “created” for teh working man? Yet look what a kiddush Hashem is made every 7 years, look who graces the dais! I think that should answer everyones questions about working.June 24, 2013 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #962404
The vast majority of women whose husbands are in kollel now do not “forgive’ their husbands the obligation to feed the family. To say that a woman with 5-6 kids (and more) is “mochel” her husband his obligation to feed his family is sophistry.
You are leveling a viscous, unsubstantiated charge, that the women aren’t willing partners in their husbands’ learning.
I’ll agree with DY. I know many women who work full time and are happy to support their (rather large) families. Whether that is due to Sem influence (read: Brainwashing) or not is truthfully irrelevant.
The bigger problem Halachicly is when such families get breaks from the Klal (read: Tuition) and are not on the level where they should be taking Tzedaka to continue learning. I will admit that in Lakewood (I believe) no one gets a break, so if you are learning there, go for it. It is a serious Gezailah Shaila if one can force others to support them via such tuition breaks, and certainly actual collecting of funds (Rabbi Hoffman had an article about this recently). Some should be allowed, others not, but certainly a Shailah must be asked.June 24, 2013 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #962405
Excellent points and comments in favor of the working Yeshiva boy who remains and looks ehrlich even in the work force. Alot of the so called learning boys will have their family look into shidduchim only if there is money, which means the father is working. As far as the seminaries are concerned, some especially the ones in Eretz Yisroel is really a business. With the amounts charged is a way of able to afford living(for the ones running the seminaries) in Eretz Yisroel. At least 60% of the girls will admit that they were forced to go to Eretz Yisroel because of being able to do a good shidduch.
Too many youngsters are fooling themselves and others which lead to broken shidduchim and divorces.
This past week i met mothers of 22+ girls that are looking for settled working boys so that I”H when time comes they can be stay at home Moms and not having their children raised by others not of our faith(and then you wonder why these children later go OTD to join the babysitters lifestyle).
Yes, i too heard of story where H.S. or Yeshiva tried to convince girls/boys to stay in seminary/Yeshiva and later on called them for big donations. And if they do give big money, suddenly this working boy will be welcomed to the tune of “Ohr Zaruah Latzaddik” by the same person who may have made their life difficult! Yes, if this boy who went to work, was made feel like a big zero and now gives them big money he really is a Tzaddik!
In our society we should really start being more honest and open and not busy with wrong philosophies that add up to a big sheker.
If we were to put closed circuit T.V.s near and around some of the seminaries , yeshivos and kollelim you would see howmany would be better off in the work force than wasting there time with too many breaks outside with their cellphones on “shmutzbook”,smoking,just shmoozing and again wasting their time and lying about their so called learning or studying!!!June 24, 2013 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #962406
ROB: did you forget the end of the same Mishna where Rav Nehorai (another name for the above Rabbi Meir) says that he would only teach his son Torah?June 24, 2013 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #962407
You see, the problem is, Yidden are like the citizens of Lake Woebegone, “where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average.”
I love my kids. Really. Especially yummy with ketchup. But realistically, they are just “above average” like everyone else. They walk with their feet on the ground and not a few inches above it. Hence, they will need to provide support for a family and will not be able to rely upon their parents.
Just saying.June 24, 2013 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #962408
After one year of beis medrash (meaning post high-school) in Darchei Torah, I decided to go to college. The Rosh Yeshiva, R’ Altusky, tried to talk me out of leaving. I told him I wasn’t cut out for learning, and I couldn’t sit through seder every day. He knew all this, and had even told me I wasn’t learning as well as I should be, and was wasting time during seder.
He replied that I didn’t know what college was like, and that there’s no way for someone to go to college and stay frum. He said the only way for a Jewish man to stay frum was to stay in yeshiva and learn. When I told him, again, that I didn’t enjoy learning all day, and it was time to go to college so I could make a parnassah, he said I should just keep trying, because eventually I’d grow to like it, and learning is way better than working.
When I went to R’ Bender and told him what R’ Altusky said, he told me, “Don’t listen to him. He obviously doesn’t know you well, and he just wants everyone to sit and learn whether it’s the thing for them or not. You should go to college so you could earn a parnassah – just make sure you’re in yeshiva at least part of the day while you’re in school!”June 24, 2013 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #962409
When I went to R’ Bender and told him what R’ Altusky said, he told me, “Don’t listen to him. He obviously doesn’t know you well, and he just wants everyone to sit and learn whether it’s the thing for them or not. You should go to college so you could earn a parnassah – just make sure you’re in yeshiva at least part of the day while you’re in school!”
The difference between a “Rosh Yeshiva” and a “Rosh HaYeshiva”, or someone who can learn and a master educator in Rabbi Bender. None of what you brought surprised me in the least.
Good story, and thank you for sharing.June 24, 2013 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #962410
Reb Nehorai (Reb Meir) was not advocating this for the entire population. He specifically addressed his comment about his son because he knew him and his kishronos. He knew that his son would achieve the success in learning that made it necessary that he remained in 100% learning. In contrast, we have countless tano’im and amora’im that were craftsmen and workers of various sorts. That is, they worked even with their superior level of learning.
Working women, who wish to assume the responsibility for bringing the parnosoh, are truly righteous. However, it is despicable to create a generation in which all sons are expected to become gedolei hador at the expense of their wives who are sentenced to full time and work (and then some). The “Kollel lifestyle” has its place of honor, but it cannot be universal. It is neither appropriate for many, and it is a fatal error for the Klal. Again, it is not fathomable that the pioneers who launched such concepts (Rav Aharon Kotler ZT”L and others) intended for the current abuse of that system.June 24, 2013 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #962411
DaMoshe, R’ Altusky was right.June 24, 2013 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #962412
DaMoshe, R’ Altusky was right.
Obviously, because “there’s no way for someone to go to college and stay frum.”June 24, 2013 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #962413
True, that’s an exaggeration, but I have little doudt that had DaMoshe stayed in yeshiva at least a bit longer, his hashkafos would have been better.June 24, 2013 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #962414
True, that’s an exaggeration, but I have little doudt that had DaMoshe stayed in yeshiva at least a bit longer, his hashkafos would have been better.
What you then meant to have said:
R’ Altusky was wrong. However, he does have a point that those who remain in Yeshiva longer many times come out with more right-wing Hashkafos, which is “better” in R’ Altusky’s (and IMH) opinion.
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