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I know, I know, there’s an infinite number of these threads, and my particular question was probably asked, but I don’t want to sift through all the posts to find it. But here’s my question
Let’s assume (and I know this is a big assumption but let’s take it as a given) that the government will accommodate all of a person’s religious needs in the army or some other non-violent national service. Also, let’s assume (and this is another big assumption) that there is nothing halachically wrong with doing community service for Medinas Yisroel, in other words it’s no different than doing community service for any secular nation and government. Why is serving in the army or participating in national service any different than earning a parnassah? From what I understand, there are Charedim who are learning but don’t want to continue living in poverty. They would like to work (and from what I understand, there is nothing wrong with that- R’ Yishmael vs. R’ Shimon bar Yochai in Berachos) but since they didn’t serve in the army, they can’t earn a parnassah legally. Why is serving in the army or doing community service any worse? At the very least, it’s like taking classes to prepare oneself for making a parnassah. If a person is willing to learn instead of working and is okay living in poverty (or he has some sort of external assistance), that’s a different story. But if a person would be willing to stop learning in order to work, why wouldn’t he be willing to stop learning to serve in the army or to participate in community service?
you’re assuming too many things. It is like saying – let’s assume challa is not chometzdig why wouldn’t someone eat it on Pesach?
That is not the situation. Many would join the army if the gedolim would ok it. They would ok it if the situation would be ok for chareidim – it is not in many ways!! END
Too many assumptions.
For one thing, even as simple a religious need as Kol Isha, the army is forcing religious soldiers whose rabbis forbid it and forcing these religious soldiers to listen to Kol Isha. From an army choir of girls. If they cannot accommodate something as simple as this, you must realize all the more serious violations they are imposing on religious soldiers.
And many are of the halachic opinion that any participation in the organs of the Israeli government is halachicly forbidden altogether.
And even those who don’t subscribe to that, they strongly hold that Limud Torah takes precedence over national or army service.
I don’t know.
I was wondering that too.
Anyone?
Current Israeli policy is that if you are Jewish, you are NOT ALLOWED TO WORK until you serve in the army. If you attempt to engage in gainful employment you will be arrested and/or conscripted. As a consequence most hareidi males once they are full fledged adults either work “off the books” or in jobs that allow them to remain “Bnei Yeshiva” (such as being teachers). If the zionists were concerned about hareidim being employed in the official economy, they would LEGALIZE WORK for non-veterans (the way they do for frum women and Arabs, who are allowed to work without being in the army.
If the zionists wanted hareidim to help defend their country, they would offer to opportunties to serve in the army without harassment or discrimination. As it is many hareidim do serve, because they are so highly motivated they serve in spite of discrimination (similar to many African Americans who served in the American military in the Civil War thru WWII era, in spite of horrific discrimination).
The reality is the efforts to draft hareidim are motivated by a hope that after three years in the army they will “see the light” and give up a lifestyle based on Torah and Mitsvos, based on the their past success in turning most religious recruits into non-Shomer Shabbos. They are probably wrong, but that’s another story.
abra cadabra: You miss the OP’s point. Let’s say there’s a guy who wants to stop learning and go to work. Right now, if he wants to work without having been in the army he has to work under the table, he can’t get job training, etc. Why is it that when such a guy is finished learning- because he WANTS to start working- he can’t do a year of national service?
And to piggyback on the OP’s question- I know the Chazon Ish said that sherut le’umi is yehareig ve’al yaavor, but did he give a reason? It would seem that, say, going to visit soldiers in the hospital would be a chesed, which is a mitzvah just like limud Torah is a mitzvah (no idea if they’re on the same caliber in the rankings, but it’s not like you’re not doing anything worthwhile in that time). If everyone thought one particular aspect of it was a problem, then start a Nachal Charedi of sherut le’umi?
National Service is 2 or 3 years, not 1 year. And national service only includes fire, ambulance and police work, not hostpital/chesed type work.
And like akuperma wrote, the law prohibits people who didn’t do army service from working.
Let’s give a better hypothetical: Let’s suppose that there is a bill in the Knesset that would allow a person after five years in Yeshiva to enter into a Chareidi version of National Service for a year and then be patur. Will the Chareidim support the bill or will this be an uproar with people claiming that the Evil Zionists are ripping Talmidei Chachamim from Yeshivas?
simcha: I made three points in my first post above, and you only addressed one of them. (And even that point you made, at most, applies only to some but not all learners.) You completely missed my first two points.
it’s not just to force anyone work for the government.
abracadabra- allow me to answer your other questions! First, to say that “halachic opinion that to participate in the organs of the Israeli governemnt is forbidden ” is poppycock. Unless you are a neturie karta, there is no such issur. there are thousands of chareidi people who served in the Army, serve in the various Ministrys, serve on batei din, etc. so, that’s an absolute red herring.
The other one , about ther army making life difficult for religious people, is equally false, There are many thoussands of people whio have been to the army and come out as good as before. many posters even attest to that.
so, neither of your other points are correct or relevant.
I demonstrated that even with a simple thing as Kol Isha by an army girls choir they are forcing religious soldiers (whose rabbis forbid it) to listen to it. Mandatory attendance of a girls choir is so important to national defense, right? How much more so the army forcibly requires religious soldiers to violate their religious principles on other issues, when they do so on such an easy accommodation!
Not sure, but someone I know who did sherut le’umi (though it was a WHILE back) only needed to do it for a year (she- yes, she- actually CHOSE to do it for two years, but that’s another story).
Yserbius: THANK YOU. You put it much better than I did.
Anyone?
And just for the record, abra cadabra, sherut le’umi is in place of army. After, you CAN work.
ETA: Just looked it up. Sherut le’umi is 12-24 months. There are multiple forms, and, according to Wikpedia, offers work in “special education, administration, hospitals, law, geriatrics, nursing homes, health clinics, teens at risk, internal security, disadvantaged communities, immigrant assistance, and many other organizations.”
“Let’s assume (and I know this is a big assumption but let’s take it as a given) that the government will accommodate all of a person’s religious needs in the army or some other non-violent national service. Also, let’s assume (and this is another big assumption) that there is nothing halachically wrong with doing community service for Medinas Yisroel, in other words it’s no different than doing community service for any secular nation and government.”
If that would be true, then there would indeed be no problem with somebody who is not learning anyways or not learning anymore to go to the army/national service/whatever. (Although we would still object to the government deciding that somebody may not learn if he wishes to.) The question is only if these assumptions, particularly the first one, are indeed correct.
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