January 8, 2009 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #589092
Ive learnt all baba basra kama and metzia, how is it anyone could go into buisiness w/o knowing choshen mishpat cold. Do u know how many issurim ppl are oiver everyday!! Anyone have an answer??January 8, 2009 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #631041
1: Know Choshen Mishpat cold.
2: Whenever ther is an issue, ask a rav.
Not sure what your point is, could you please elaborate?January 8, 2009 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #631042
yashrus20, By the time one goes to work he has covered a good part of all 3 Bavos in Yeshiva. Hopefully, one was paying attention when the Rebbi went through the K’tzos Hachoshen (the “Choshen” in Choshen Mishpat). Hopefully, people know what the “Mishpat” part is.
Don’t forget the bain yisrael l’akum part. You can’t “just be machmir” there (e.g. avaidas akum — someone who left the company a few months ago), the din is exact and you should ask a rav. My rebbis tend to enjoy the situations I bring them.January 8, 2009 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #631044
Can you give an example? What would be a business situation in which acting with honesty like a mensch would lead to an issur?
However, I agree that it’s disgraceful when people disregard choshen mishpat – and especially foul when those same people criticize others for not following the latest chumrah.January 8, 2009 10:55 pm at 10:55 pm #631045
“Do u know how many issurim ppl are oiver everyday!!”
This is unique to going to work because?
How many issurim are people oiver in their daily dealing with family, neighbors and friends?
Your point is? That people should learn? Thats a chiddush? Was I just oiver an issur with my reply?January 8, 2009 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #631046
People work because the kesubah obligates everyone to support their households. Choshen mishpat is a very complex area, and we need training classes- the equivalent of chosson classes. But living without parnassah is just not an option for most people. There are only so many wealthy in-laws and parents.
Furthermore, even if you don’t work, choshen mishpat questions come up all the time. You borrowed a car- are you allowed to fill up the gas tank? you lent your credit card- can you charge someone the interest if he didn’t pay you on time? Can you repay shekels with dollars and vice versa?
Finally, there are many non-entrepreneurial parnassas, usually available with a college degree, that don’t involve heavy choshen mishpat, eg accounting, programming, etc. The biggest kashye is on those who skip college because they’re too frum, and have to do some type of gesheft to support their family when money runs tight. It is in running a store that mos of these issue come up.January 8, 2009 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #631047
Isn’t it beautiful to see how an innocent guy starts a thread about business people being educated from a halachik perspective & two posters immediatly take the oppurtunity to knock yeshiva guys?
Mi k’amcha yisroel.
BTW, before going into business one MUST read the eleventh perek of Mesilas Yeshorim.
And yes, training classes would be a great idea.January 9, 2009 12:20 am at 12:20 am #631048
If you work without knowing all the relavent laws, there is a risk that some of your income flow will Gezel (theft). If you don’t work then all your income flow could be Gezel. The right professional training will allow you to choose work that minimizes potential pitfalls in many areas of Jewish law.January 9, 2009 1:14 am at 1:14 am #631049
The Big OneParticipant
You are absolutely correct. And it is so predictable. The dd’s of the world spend their days looking for what they can grasp on and try to use to hit Bnei Torah with.January 9, 2009 1:33 am at 1:33 am #631050
Yashrus20 it’s nice to see that you think that knowing all of the bava’s is enough for choshen mishpot way to go man! I also learnt them and am still pretty confused when it comes to an actuall situationJanuary 9, 2009 4:50 am at 4:50 am #631051
NotPashut- I don’t see anybody knocking people in learning here. I just see 2 posters pointing out that Halachic ignorance is terrible whether or not you work. Furthermore, a comment like “mi ke’amcha yisroel” based on your diyun lekaf chov of 2 posts here is nothing less than loshon hara and laaz on all of klal yisroel. I refer you to Sefer Chofetz Chaim, who helpfully explains that EACH aveira of loshon Hara is worse than Avoda Zarah, Gilui Arayos and Shefichas Domim, and when you multiply that by the millions of Jews in the world who now need to be asked mechila, you might just find yourself in need of reviewing that same Mesilas Yeshorim perek on nekiyus.
FWIW, I’m mochel bemechila gemura. 🙂January 9, 2009 7:41 am at 7:41 am #631052
“People work because the kesubah obligates everyone to support their households”
“The biggest kashye is on those who skip college because they’re too frum,”
“NotPashut- I don’t see anybody knocking people in learning here”
Well then maybe you need glasses.
“Furthermore, a comment like “mi ke’amcha yisroel” based on your diyun lekaf chov of 2 posts here is nothing less than loshon hara and laaz on all of klal yisroel.”
Actually it was just a reference to you & dd, I don’t see how you managed to shlep the rest of klal yisroel into your mess.
“I refer you to Sefer Chofetz Chaim, who helpfully explains that EACH aveira of loshon Hara is worse than Avoda Zarah, Gilui Arayos and Shefichas Domim”
Which is exactly what you should have considred before knocking bnei torah on a website read by thousannds of people.
“FWIW, I’m mochel bemechila gemura. 🙂 “
I would also be, but I think you would have to ask all bnei torah as well.January 9, 2009 7:41 am at 7:41 am #631053
Its like this, my rosh gave a shmooze on this last yr and no im not saying its assur to work im saying i want to know how ppl do it. Im being dan l’kaf zchus. Notice the thead asks How?? My point is though ppl take it for granted when they go learn, but forget the torah still applies at work. Ex: Hasocher es haumnin-The relationship bet. person highering and the worker. Theres alot of problems that once u give the guy a job can u go back on your word?? Whats the gedarim?? When can the worker not back out?? whats the gedarim?? this is just a spec of what u need to know. Oh and your right i dont know choshen mishpat cold (yet lol), but im not dealing with these matters in the real world. But shaabos, hanhgas haboker…etc im trying to make sure i know it cold.
Oh and about knocking yeshiva bochurim lol i look at it like this: no matter what israel does there wrong in the eyes of the world. Why is no matter what bochurim do, they have no middos, not responsible….etc? b/c we are right and hashem watching to see how much betuchin we have. Does it fustrate us when france condems israel for no reason?? Does it fustrate us when ppl knock bochurim, WHEN ALL BOCHURIM TRY TO DO IS LEARN THE ONLY REAL THING IN THIS GASHMIESTICK WORLD?? So to me its normal.January 9, 2009 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #631054
Can I ask what I did to deserve the insult that I received from The Big One and notpashut? I simply asked for an example of where the difficulties lie for someone who does business like an honest mensch.
By comparison, it is obvious to me that the halachos of interpersonal relationships are much more difficult. Every day we are faced with dilemmas of how to deal with each other with respect and politeness, and without lashon hara. I am truly curious if there are similar everyday difficulties in business.
I did not bash anyone in this thread. I did express agreement with yashrus20 that some people don’t give choshen mishpa enough seriousness. And I did suggest that someone who ignores choshen mishpat while at the same time stressing chumros (especially faddish chumros) in other areas is acting with hypocracy.
I request an apology from Big One and from Notpashut.January 9, 2009 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #631055
How do people do it? they do it the same way they do everything else. Hopefully you learn what you have to, if you did not, or do not remember what you learned, hopefully you have a Rav to guide you.
This is true of everything in life, not just going out to work.
Take an Avreich sitting and learning. When is it appropriate to interrupt ones learning and do a chessed and when not? Does it depend who the chessed is for? Does it depend if others are around? Does it it depend on the type of chessed?
Take the average housewife. She cooked a pot of soup. It is cooling on the table and sees bugs floating on top. Does she spoon out the bugs and eat the soup? Check for more bugs like she was doing bedikas chametz? Does she have to throw out the whole pot?
Take a bachur in the dormitory. He is trying to fall asleep but he is hot? Can he open the window to cool off? Does he have to consider his roomate who makpid not to have the slightest hint of cold in the room?
People learn. If they dont, hopefully they have someone reliable to consult with. This is true for all people in all walks of life. It is not limited to people who go out to work.
Learning all three “Bavas” will not prepare someone for the workforce. In addition to Choshen Mishpat, there are very relevant halachos of Even HaEzer, Orach Chaim and Yoreh Deah that apply as well. Its a good thing most people dont believe they learned everything they need to know while in Yeshiva. The expression “Live and Learn” is quite appropriate.January 9, 2009 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #631056
I’ve seen you attack posters in other threads. So please spare us your righteous indignation. When you slyly refer to the “latest and faddish chumros” you are attcking the Gedolim. Who do you think establishes the chumros? Not Yankel Doe. It is you who should aplogize to every Jew who follows these chumros, and more importantly the Gedolim who established them.January 9, 2009 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #631057
My preceding comment was directed at dd, who takes joy in mocking Chareidim for for being makpid in keeping mitzvos.January 10, 2009 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #631058
Well said.January 10, 2009 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #631059
Jphone-u work im assuming? your gonna tell me u ask every shaila….do u even know on what u should ask??? Lets say u do, ur gonna tell me u ask a rav every shaila. Meaning not leaving any details out from whats going on…your buissness, what your selling, how much…etc. I dont think so, be realistic. Leftists (not saying u are just saying what they would say)”But the rambam worked!!!”. Hmmmm…Hmmmm…..WHEN U KNOW AS MUCH AS THE RAMBAM DID GET BACK TO ME.January 10, 2009 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #631060
Enough with the attacks! I think this is another thread that needs closing.January 10, 2009 11:23 pm at 11:23 pm #631061
Learning Choshen Mishpat properly can easily take a decade, and until one does you won’t even necessarily know what sheilos you should be asking.
A shochet once approached the Chofetz Chaim that he wanted to leave shechita and go into business because he was afraid of the responsibility of feeding the city treifos and neveilos. The Chofetz Chaim answered him that there are so many more issurim one is responsible for in business on a daily basis.
This doesn’t mean people shouldn’t work, just appreciate the responsibility involved.January 11, 2009 1:31 am at 1:31 am #631062
Based on timing and assumption that posters are Shomer Shabbos, notpashut is in Israel and jewishfeminist02 in either Europe or Israel. I am in middle of US.
The one area of halacha that carries the heaviest long tern responsibility is writing Gitten (Jewish bill of divorce).
Requiring every one going into business to have expertise in Choshen Mishpat (Yadin Yadin) is impractical.January 11, 2009 6:46 am at 6:46 am #631063
I am in Israel.
“Requiring every one going into business to have expertise in Choshen Mishpat (Yadin Yadin) is impractical.”
That’s true, but some sort of class or course is a pretty good idea.January 11, 2009 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #631064
Yahsrus. Don’t assume. You ignored my question altogether. Does anyone consult a Rav everytime they have a shayla about anything? Should they? Is everyone a baki in all 4 sections of shulchan aruch with nosei keilim that they can answer everything that comes up in life?
Why is going out to business any different than driving a bus or teaching in a yeshiva? The shaylos may be different, but your question still remains.January 11, 2009 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #631065
Well, the comments on this thread certainly prove that as a community we have very far to go in learning mitzvos bein adom l’chaveiro.
After being insulted, (possibly because the kannoim didn’t like what I said in other threads) I asked for an apology and notpashut refused.
May Hashem treat us more kindly next Yom Kippur than we treat our fellow Jews.January 11, 2009 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #631066
I am not impressed with your righteous indignation.
Please spare us the baloney.
When you apoligize to all bnei torah perhaps indeed Hashem will treat us more kindly.January 11, 2009 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #631067
Apologies to all for the childish diversion.
To get back on topic, I asked where choshen mishpat is likely to show up in everyday business. I can think of examples where there are gray areas in what could be considered honest. Where’s the line between putting your best face on and being dishonest?
Can a bakery advertise that we sell the best brownies in town when you know that many people prefer your competitors’?
Can you say the lowest possible price I could go to is $X, when it’s not really the lowest possible?
Are these examples of dishonesty, or can you rely on your customer not taking your words literally?
In law there are distinctions between an advertisement which is just puffery and can’t be proven or disproven (eg “we’re the best”) versus specific false claims (eg “4 out 5 people prefer…”)January 11, 2009 10:57 pm at 10:57 pm #631068
KK i feel like ive been oiver lifnei eiver lo siten michshel! This is rediculous, when i asked how?? i wanted input NOT bashing! AND FOR ONCE I AGREE WITH JEWISHFEMINIST if this cont. mods should close the thread.January 12, 2009 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #631069
i just read this from beginning to end… all those that posted (blasted) should do the same. i am totally humiliated, mortified and TERRIFIED. yes- terrified because what is holding moshiach back is RIGHT IN FRONT OF MY EYES.
kudos to all those regular posters that did not join in the attackJanuary 12, 2009 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #631070
I don’t get this entire thread.
I understand someone has an issue that people can be engaged in business without being experts in choshen mishpat. I suspect the legitimacy of the question though, when after several tries, he/she won’t answer why this is any more an issue with those who are engaged in business than those engaged in anything else in life. Seems to me that the questioner is bashing those who engage in business. Perhaps the original poster should offer an apology.January 13, 2009 1:13 am at 1:13 am #631072
The focus has to be upon creating Kosher Money!!!
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