Would you choose army or kollel?

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  • #887021
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    yichusdik:

    Of course it is yeradas Hadoros. Now we have the Stupid Tzionim to pay for learning. Then, if you didn’t work, you starved, and you were publicly ridiculed by Bais Din in the hope that you would become productive & support your family.

    As I said, Yeridas HaDoros. As time goes along, their brains turn to liberal mush.

    #887022

    ROB,

    It would be more acceptable than the situation is now.

    #887023
    hello99
    Participant

    ROB: I’m still awaiting your response to me comments.

    #887024

    there is a difference between now and then,then evreyone knew shas by bar mitzvah

    #887025
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    dass yochid – done deal !

    #887026

    ROB,

    I’m not an MK. Are you? πŸ™‚

    It’s not tenable, though, unless the draft is abolished.

    Also, better still would be if all Yidden living in E.Y. appreciated Torah learning, and supported serious talmidei chachomim properly.

    I haven’t had time to read all of the posts here (and I may not have time to respond), but from what I saw, it seems your approach is the exact opposite of R’ Moshe’s, in IG”M Y.D. (2) 116. Please take a look and let me know what you think.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=919&st=&pgnum=188&hilite=

    ????? ???? ??? ??????? ???????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????

    ?”? ???? ???”?

    ??”? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???????? ????”?

    ??? ???? ?”? ?????? ?????? ????? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??????? ??? ??????? ??? ?????? ??????? ??? ???????? ?? ??????? ????? ??????? ??????? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ????. ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???”? ??”? ???? ??”? ???? ?”? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????????? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???”? ?????? ????? ????? ?????.

    ???”? ??”? ???? ?? ???”? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????”? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????, ??? ?? ????? ???? ????”? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??’ ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ???????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ??”? ??”? ??”? ?”? ????? ??? ???? ?????”? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?”? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ??????? ????? ????, ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ?”? ????? ?????? ???”?, ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??’ ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ????? ?????, ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??????. ???? ???? ?? ??? ???????? ??? ???? ????”? ??? ???? ????”? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??”? ,?? ?? ???????? ??????? ???? ??”? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ????, ?”? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ????????, ????? ?”? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ?????. ??? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ????”? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??????, ???? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?????

    ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ?”? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???”? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ?’ ???? ?? ????

    ,????? ????? ????”?

    ??? ?????????

    #887027
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    hello99- ‘mishenichnas av……” let’s pray that next year we can align av and adar!

    I thought I had answered your question about the rambam hilchos shemitta 13-13. Look into the Ridvaz (the immediate nosei keilov) on halacha 12 and you will see how he interpretes this rambam! Actually, exactly as I have been saying….

    as far as calling all critics “traitors’, in these days it might be better to unite rather than divide. Many of the people who are disturbed by the situation of kollelim are very “ehrliche yidden”. I asked in one of my postings whether one realizes how this appraoch has influenced shidduchim- do you realize what it has done to good , wonderful girls and distraught parents? Plus- it is putting the financial health of all of the Jewish people in jeopardy,

    if you feel you still need more elaboration, I’d be happy to do it! gut shabbos!

    #887028
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Daasyochid: I think that you misunderstand me and many of us who have qualms about the way kollelim are organized. We all understand that there are individuals who should consecrate their energies and lives to Torah so as to become the Poskim and the Manhigim.We all understand that these people should be helped by the tsibbur (not unlike asoroh batlonim). I am sure you know that throughout the centuries, wealthy jews always took as their sons-in law talmidei chachomim and helped them for years to study. (until they got a position, by the way). What people object to today is the blanket acceptance that everone should learn in a kollel “le-olam vo-ed”. THAT- for sure- was never the case and that, for sure, will bankrupt us. Take selected individuals- help them for a number of years and to that, no one would object.

    The teshuva from R’Moshe zz’l does not address this at all, He is commenting on the Rambam ,who abhorred taking money for Torah, and the Piskei halocho in later generations that allowed this for Rabbonim and melamdim . R’Moshe zz”l himself never stayed in kollel for years- he was Rov of Lubian at age 22 (I think) !

    As fsr as MK’s and knesset- this will inevitably be part of the compromise-that some people will be exmpt from army duty (say,after a number of kids or years) and allow them to enter the job market. Finaces will clearly be curtailed and we will see then how the chareidi olam will react. I venture to say that the chassidische olam will accept it…and the yeshivishe olam? who knows…

    #887029

    ROB,

    You write, “that to learn in a kollel and to rely upon the Tsibbur- is a unique situation (my sons never took money from the tsibbur)and should be reserved to a few”, and, “selected individuals”. That is an improvement over what you wrote earlier, “let NOT ONE AVREICH take a penny from the medinah and they will be free from serving”.

    Hopefully, you’ll soon come around to what R’ Moshe writes, “??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ?”?”.

    You wrote, “see what the Rambam writes about people using Torah to earn a livin-“

    To which choppy responded, “The Ramah and Shach in Hilchos Talmud Torah says that nowadays you’re allowed to live off tzedakah to learn Torah.”

    Part of your response was, “if yo ulearn the Remlo properly and the shach,yo uwill see that they totally support my ivew on this”.

    Do you see how R’ Moshe didn’t learn it like you?

    #887030
    choppy
    Participant

    Aside from what I (correctly) cited from the Ramah and Shach in Hilchos Talmud Torah, Nnne of this “living off tzedakah” material has anything to do with kollel people. This is a common error. Tzedakah means that I give you money for no other reason that you need it – I do not demand anything in return for my donation. If I do demand something in return for my donation, it is not a donation but payment for services rendered. So if I pay you to entertain me, to be my personal trainer, to sing and dance for me, to be my baby sitter, I am not a baby sitter living off charity, but rather a paid worker. And so the statements about people living off tzedakah refer to people who are given money because they are poor, with no expectation from the donor that they learn, or work, or sleep, or do whatever they want. However, if someone gives money to you because he wants to merit the zechus of supporting Torah, and expects you to learn Torah because that is what he is supporting you to do, then that is not tzedakah at all but rather a simple business deal, the same as if I pay you to play baseball.

    If I give you tzedakah money because you are poor, and you sit home all day watching television, then you may be an unproductive member of society but you are not a thief – I gave you tezdakah for food, and you are spending it on food. It was my choice to do that. But if I give you money to learn in Kollel and you stay home all day watching TV then you are a thief, because you took money specifically to learn and you did not keep your end of the bargain.

    Thus, taking money for learning in Kollel is NOT living of tzedakah. Since I, the recipient, must provide something in return for payment received, that is a simple business deal. If I do NOT have to provide anything in return for payment received, that is Tzedakah. Since Kollel people must learn Torah in return for the payments they receive, they are NOT living at all off Tzedakah. Not any more than any person who renders services for payment received.

    #887031
    hello99
    Participant

    ROB: I think you are confusing two disparate issues. There is room for a legitimate discussion regarding the number of people who our society can afford to support in long-term learning, though I have neither the time not interest in joining it. This conversation can only be productive when it is an attempt to determine what is in the greatest benefit to the overall health of our community.

    However, you are being extremely naive if you think that this is the motive of Plessner, Lieberman et al and the voters they wish to represent. Anyone who lives here and interacts with their type is aware that their primary goal is to destroy the Torah community. The sole reason they wish to coerce Bnei Torah to leave Kollel and join the army is in the assumption that the experience will make them less committed to Yidishkeit. If 80% of Chareidim would leave Kollel to work, as they wish, but retain their current lifestyle and level of observance; they would consider the law a failure.

    Your intentions may be pure, but be aware that the context in which you are stating them is joining hands with the modern equivalent of the Misyavnim.

    #887032
    nossond
    Member

    Torah and militarism are two distinct aspects of Judaism. At times, the two factors converge into one. This is the malchus of David Hamelech, the Torah Warrior. Joshua is also the same idea. At other times, the two factors are separate causing a rift. This is how it was by Yaakov and the rift with Shimon and Levi.

    Historically speaking, we are now in the galus of Yaakov. As such, Torah and militarism will remain distinct factors and cause a rift. Neither is wrong. This is why there is currently such a rift in Israel over this issue. The two factions will not integrate into one. Neither is wrong.

    The next Torah warrior integration will be in the times of Moshiach. Moshiach will battle the battles of G-d and destroy the wicked.

    #887033
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    various answers to some of the posters:

    to choppy- your “pilpul” sounds interesting but it is just that, a pilpul- look in shulchan aruch ,roemo and shach and the various Poskim- they all consider receiving money from the tsibbur as tsedokoh, regardless whether it is for a valued and legitimate cause(see also Ridvaz on the rambam, hilchos shemitta too, 13-12)

    to daas yochid (and hello99); again, you are using legitimate opinions to make a blanket decision. The remo, the Shach and other acharonim clearly allow to receive money from the tsibbur (or the pupils) so as to be able to ba a Rov, a ‘melamed” and other ‘klei kodesh”. Therev is only one reference in the shach to “melamdim and lomdim” 9see R’moshe’s teshuva that daas yochid quoted). All other references were about beign a Rov or a teachign the talmidim. Now- no one is disputing the need to finance some of the people who go to yesiva and/or kollel. It is the INDISCRIMINATE financing that most people object to. THAT clearly has never happened in our history ! Even in our very recent past (see Gateshead kollel, Lakewood kollel in the beginning) not every person who got married went into the kollel and should get paid. THAT is the question, not the fiancing of selected talmidim.

    to hello99- I don;t livein eretz ysroel now but I have m ydobuts whether every peorson you qoute cares about the people learning Torah. it is the misuse of these deferments that rankles people.

    to nossond- thanks for your derush but when an enemy ewnats to kill you, you kill him first. Ergo- an army in Israel.Incidentally,what were the Chashmonoim and Bar Kochva? The golus of Yaakov?

    #887034
    pcoz
    Member

    lol, der Berliner

    #887035

    Therev is only one reference in the shach to “melamdim and lomdim” 9see R’moshe’s teshuva that daas yochid quoted).

    One is enough for me. R’ Moshe is quite clear that he is very much referring to kollel stipends.

    it is the misuse of these deferments that rankles people.

    The Chazon Ish was said to be very disturbed by exemptions being given to bochurim who weren’t really learning.

    But, the decision of who should receive exemptions and who should not, is not something that we can allow to be made by the Israeli government. They are certainly not trustworthy to leave alone those who are serious learners. And, as I quoted R’ Moshe, we could use many talmidei chachomim learning, not just a select few as you state.

    #887036
    hello99
    Participant

    ROB: Look, I’m trying to be Dan l’Kaf Zechus that you are siding with these enemies of the Jewish people solely out of ignorance. Your reluctance to heed my warnings would seem to indicate that your “some of my best friends are Yungerleit” is a classic one.

    #887037
    hello99
    Participant

    ROB: “Now- no one is disputing the need to finance some of the people who go to yesiva and/or kollel”

    Actually, you were attempting to quote the Rambam Hilchos Talmud Torah precisely to that effect. I gather you have conceeded that the Beis Yosef, Rama and Shach do not rule that way, and it is not the accepted Halacha.

    If fact, as I pointed out previously, the Rambam himself in Shmita v’Yovel contradicts your understanding of what he wrote in Hilchos Talmud Torah. While the Radvaz’s attempt at reconciliation seems to agree with your position, if you read the words of the Rambam in Shmita v’Yovel it is clearly not the Rambam’s intent.

    #887038

    I gather you have conceeded that the Beis Yosef, Rama and Shach do not rule that way, and it is not the accepted Halacha.

    Yes, it does seem that he conceded this point.

    it is clearly not the Rambam’s intent.

    Although, to be fair, R’ Moshe seems to lean towards understanding the Ramba”m that way, although he emphatically states that the halacha is not that way.

    #887039
    hello99
    Participant

    DY: Reb Moshe is explaining the Rambam Talmud Torah, not Shmita. In Shmita the Rambam writes ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ??????. He clearly is referring to Terumos and Ma’aseros which the community gives the Kohanim and Levi’im, not that they were unusually successful in business as the Radvaz implies.

    #887040
    oomis
    Participant

    I think that what has happened is that rather than being regarded as the form of tzedakah that it truly is, this unqualified total financial support is looked upon as an entitlement. No one is entitled to be supported by anyone on an ongoing basis, unless there are mitigating circumstances, i.e, the person is not able bodied or ill in some other way. Hashem expects us to earn a living. If not, there would absolutely no need for any halachos in the Torah that pertain to parnassah, or of working the land in E”Y. Does the Gemorah not say that a man who has not taught his son a trade, has taught him to be a thief (or something like that)?

    Some men are such iluyim that they should ONLY be immersed in Torah (and they can earn parnassah of some type from that also, by teaching Torah to others). Most frum men do not fit into the iluy category, and they should be doing both. They might WANT to only sit and learn (why not, wouldn’t anyone prefer to do something he finds meaningful and enjoyable all day, rather than punch a time clock?), but that is impractical, considering that mouths have to be fed, diapers have to be changed, tuition has to be paid. It is unfair to be angry at someone for pointing that out, IMO. And it is equally unfair to expect people who are NOT immersed in Torah or even frum, to be blindly accepting of those who are, when they do not understand the importance of learning. If some of those of us who are frum feel that the yungerleit should not expect to be blindly supported forever without their earning a living or without concretely giving back to the country out of appreciation for the support they do get, how could the non-frum world ever be expected to accept that? And that is the crux of why the Israeli government is giving the yeshivah boys so much grief now. There are at least two sides to every story, and if we are to be fair, it would be a good thing to try to reasonably understand the emotions that are involved here now.

    #887041
    choppy
    Participant

    rob: I didn’t give any pilpul. Just simple logic. The money received is not for a “cause”. And it is not tzedakah. It is a simple business transaction. If I make a deal with my neighbor that he’ll pay me $100 a week if I learn Torah and he’ll share the s’char, it’s a simple business deal. The same as if he agreed to pay me $100 a week to watch me play baseball.

    #887042

    Reb Moshe is explaining the Rambam Talmud Torah, not Shmita.

    Unless you want it to be a stira, you have to explain like the Radba”z or similar (e.g. Maaseh Rokach, who is quoted in the Mafteach as explaining that the Ramba”m in shmita is referring to someone who has enough on his own, or is willing to suffer dire poverty).

    #887043
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    daasyochid and hello99- from our discussions in recent days, we are actually much closer in thought that you think.

    I said, in an earlier posting, that few people argue that NO ONE should be paid for learning, nothwithstanding the Rambam. The Poskim after him (and you are quoting many of them) agreed that, “bizman hazeh’, in our days, Rabbonim, melamdim and other klei kodesh can receive money for teaching Torah (schar batoloh or any other explanation).Actually -to hello99- what the Ridvaz is doing is a very simple thing- how do you reconcile the rambam in hilchos talmud torah and hilchos shemitta ? (it is an axiom of halacha that we try to minimize the machlokes, if possible, and certainly to harmonize some inner contradiction).So, the Ridvaz explains that the Rambam clearly approves of people dedicating themselves to Torah, BUT- says the Ridvaz, this only is allowed if he does NOT receive money from zedakah- and so ,there is no contradiction in the Rambam.This is the only way that you can reconcile the Rambam in both his piskei halocho. (I am not sure what your mention of terumos umaaasros is. Surely, the Yisraelim cannot eat terumo?)

    Now, we come to the Remo and the Shach- both quoting extensively from the Kessef Mishne. IF you learn the whole Remo and the Shach, it is clear that they are talking about Rabbonim, Poskim and melamdim. As a matter of fact, if you learn the whole Kessef Mishne, it is crystal clear this is what they are talking about. The kessef Mishne goes to extreme lengths to describe the kind of talmidei chachomim that CAN take money from the tsibbur- and he mentions Poskim, Melamdim and Rabbonim.

    Nowhere does it say that any person can take money from the tsibbur indiscriminately. And this is the crux of the difference between those (like me) who are critical of the kollel system today and those (maybe like you) who assume that everyone can do this.

    Throughout our history, there were always a number of people who received their expenses from someone else while learning ,either from family or father-in-law- or the “kuppah’ of the town. However, these people were selected carefully and it was always for a certain period of time until they assumed rabbinical positions.Today- especially in Israel- this system has broken down because a large part of those who are in kollel should not be there. The financial situation makes this a precarious position. This is essentially the position I espouse.

    As far as the army is concerned, it is actually a separate discussion. However, my point was in some of my postings that if you would stop all stipends to the mass of the kollels, the vast majority would leave the kollel to earn a living and I would even go so far as to give all the kollel jungeleit a blanket exemption, so that we can start with a clean slate.

    and-hello99- I do not believe that all of the people who oppose the blanket exemption from the army are all intent on eradicating Torah.Many are well meaning, both for the country AND for the jungeleit, many of whom would fare much better outside of kollel. We haven’t even touched upon the issue of women working , of girsl unable to get a shidduch, of the loss of capable people in other spheres…..etc…

    #887044

    Does the Gemorah not say that a man who has not taught his son a trade, has taught him to be a thief (or something like that)?

    The Gemara concludes:

    ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ??????? ????

    If some of those of us who are frum feel that the yungerleit should not expect to be blindly supported forever without their earning a living or without concretely giving back to the country out of appreciation for the support they do get, how could the non-frum world ever be expected to accept that? And that is the crux of why the Israeli government is giving the yeshivah boys so much grief now.

    So in other words, you are blaming it on yourselves.

    There are at least two sides to every story,

    And often, only one is right.

    and if we are to be fair, it would be a good thing to try to reasonably understand the emotions that are involved here now.

    To understand is not the same as to agree.

    Did you read the teshuva I quoted from R’ Moshe? To repeat his conclusion:

    ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ?”? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???”? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ?’ ???? ?? ????

    #887045
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    rob: I didn’t give any pilpul. Just simple logic. The money received is not for a “cause”. And it is not tzedakah. It is a simple business transaction. If I make a deal with my neighbor that he’ll pay me $100 a week if I learn Torah and he’ll share the s’char, it’s a simple business deal. The same as if he agreed to pay me $100 a week to watch me play baseball.

    I’ll agree to this. Its only whan someone actually asks for Tzedaka that it is such. Taking a salary from a Kollel is NOT really taking Tzedaka. Taking a tuition discount for being in Kollel probably IS Tzedaka (depending on the situation and manner of discount, see earlier threads). Collecting to pay for your daughter’s wedding and Nadan (because you have nothing) certainly IS Tzedaka.

    To sidetrack, I heard a speach over Shabbos decrying that no one wants to date daughters of Lakewood rabbaim & Kolleleit, since they have no money. If this is true, who do the SONS of the Lakewood Rabbaim & Kolleliet date?

    #887046
    choppy
    Participant

    Q: What percentage of Jews in Israel or America are full-time Torah learners?

    A: A very very small, precious few, percentage.

    We can, and should, increase the percentage.

    #887047
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The way I see it, is that there are about 15m jews in the world. So that makes some 7.5m men.

    So, if there are 150,000 men who just learn, that would be 2%, or one in 50. That seems like a very reasonable percentage, and in line with what all you people scream about how it was always only a small percentage.

    But, there aren’t even close to that many.

    #887048
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    choppy and popa- you can try yout utmost in your reasoning (this is why I called it a pilpul) but paying kollel jungeleit is ZEDAKAH !! if you have a private arrangement with someone in a Yissoschot and zevulun mode, maybe you can claim this is not zedakah, but EVERYTHING ELSE, every pruttah coming from the tsibbur is zedokoh. I would include tuition but we can argue about this. However, you never asked the rest of the community whether they want to have an arrangement like yissoschor and zevulun (or like a father-in-law) and this is why there is so much antagonism against kollelim- people have not accepted this idea that everyone should learn at the expense of the tsibbur.

    popa- you are quoting a daas jochid in R’Nehoroi-look at the gemoro berochos 35B.

    and- the story you mention about girls in lakewood only re-inforces my argument. There are countless girls who cannot get a shidduch because the boys are advised to find a “rich’ shidduch and the girls with parents who are not rich suffer.

    Also, popa- you are wrong in your percentages. You forgot to count the tens of thousands of young bachurim who are learning. Don’t they count??

    Lastly-oomis1105- thank you for being on my side. After all, we seem to be the adults in the room. And, by the way, you are one hudnred percent right in quoting the gemoro that not having a trade will bring someone to steal. Kiddushin 82a.

    #887049

    you can try yout utmost in your reasoning (this is why I called it a pilpul) but paying kollel jungeleit is ZEDAKAH !</em.

    Wolf would have a field day with your logic.

    people have not accepted this idea that everyone should learn at the expense of the tsibbur.

    Many have, and the rest need to be educated. At the very least, you can stop being part of the problem, now that you’ve seen r’ Moshe’s teshuva and that you were wrong l’halacha. (I’m assuming you didn’t mean “everyone” literally.)

    popa- you are quoting a daas jochid in R’Nehoroi-look at the gemoro berochos 35B.

    It is the Gemara’s conclusion.

    Also, popa- you are wrong in your percentages. You forgot to count the tens of thousands of young bachurim who are learning. Don’t they count??

    I don’t know where anyone gets their numbers from, but it’s clear that R’ Moshe wanted many married men to receive stipends.

    After all, we seem to be the adults in the room.

    I am disappointed that you have resorted to bolstering your argument by calling those who disagree with you children.

    #887050
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    ROB:

    I’m counting only the people who are learning their whole life. I assumed we agreed that everyone should learn for some portion of their life, and thus, the only disagreement was how many should do nothing but learn.

    #887051
    choppy
    Participant

    However, you never asked the rest of the community whether they want to have an arrangement like yissoschor and zevulun

    Incorrect. Every penny in Kollel salaries comes from willing volunteers from the community who wish to participate in a yissoschor and zevulun relationship. 100% legit business relationship (non-tzedakah.)

    You forgot to count the tens of thousands of young bachurim who are learning. Don’t they count??

    A) They’re not paid a penny. B) The Tinokos Shel Bais Rabban have always learnt full time in a Talmud Torah.

    We need to increase the amount of yungerleit in Kollel. The percentage is way too low currently.

    #887052
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    We can only conduct a conversation if facts are accepted as facts.

    choppy- the gemoro in kiddushin (actually a mishneh)still says that it is a daas jochid. Every other tanah has a different view. Plus- the gemoro in berachos 35b quite obviously does not agree with R’Nehoroi or you.

    Secondly, what halocho did R’Moshe “pasken'(that I have not accepted)? All he said was that it is allowed to take money for learning- or studying, if you want to expand the envelope. Again, until this generation , no one ever said that everyone should be in kollel. Quiet the contrary. And- if the arrangment is indeed yissoschor and zevulun, then what are we arguing about ? The fact is that the vast majority of jungeleit in israel receive a stipend from the government and this is at the center of the argument.

    You may want to increase the number of yungeleit and I said- many times- “gezunterheit”- but don’t tax the rest fo the population for this.

    Lastly, if you felt insulted by not being caleld an adult, my apologies and -as it is av- ask for mechilah on that ‘chet”

    #887053
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    popa- you are quoting a daas jochid in R’Nehoroi-look at the gemoro berochos 35B

    I don’t know what you are referring to. I wasn’t attempting to quote any gemera. All I see on that page is that wine is better than bread because bread just makes you full, but wine makes you happy and full.

    #887054
    choppy
    Participant

    Again, until this generation , no one ever said that everyone should be in kollel.

    No one in this generation says that either. And everyone is not in kollel in this generation. Look at popa’s numbers above. Less than 2% are in. (Actually, less than even 1%.)

    The fact is that the vast majority of jungeleit in israel receive a stipend from the government and this is at the center of the argument.

    No that is not the center of the argument. The reshoyim in Israel want to drag the bochorim and yungerleit out of the Yeshivos and mekomos HaTorah without regard for any stipend. They simply want to force them into their army. Even if they don’t take any stipend, MK Mofaz and MK Plesner want to criminalize and throw into prison any bochor or yungerleit who refuses to leave the Yeshiva — even if they don’t accept any money. The main argument isn’t over money. The reshoyim are demanding to (sic) “share the burden”.

    #887055
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    My apologies to popa and choppy- it is the gemoro berochos 36b.

    #887056
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I still don’t see anything relevant. What does it say?

    #887057
    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: I think he is quoting Harbei Asu K’rashbi V’lo Hitzlichu. I thought it was earlier in the Masechta though.

    #887058
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    ok- I had it right the first time- it is berochos 35b.

    “Said Abaye- many tried to do it like R’Yishmoel [to work and learn] and they succeeded, many tried to do it like R’Shimon be jochai [to learn and not to work] and did not succeed”

    Said Rovo to the rabbonon [his talmidim] :do not appear before me in the days of nissan and tishrei [days when they could get work] so that you should npt be worried about your “parnossoh’ all the time.”

    Look at the whole sugya and you will see that the gemoro understood that one ultimately had to work to be able to learn properly.

    #887059
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Ummm. Ok. I don’t see how that is responsive to anything I said…

    I was responding to the charge that: until this generation , no one ever said that everyone should be in kollel. My response is that we still don’t say that. All we’re saying is that 1% should be in kollel. Seems like a pretty reasonable percentage to me; 1% learn, and the rest support them.

    #887060
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    choppy- I am not arguing on behalf of the Israeli government or Mofaz or Plesner. I am arguing about the impact of having everyone in kollel ,regardless of their qualifications.

    There have been suggestions to declare a general amnesty to everyone- so anyone in a kollel would not have to go ot the army, and then afterwards only finance a limited amount of people.This would put everyone’s finances on a better footing- and don’t kid yourself, there is much resentment of the kollel people not going to the army but also because they take a big chunk of money from the public. Money is always, always, at the root of everything.

    My argument has been that the vast majority of jungeleit would leave the kollels if they could go make an honest living.

    #887061

    ??? ???? ?? ??? ???????? ??? ???? ????”? ??? ???? ????”? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??”? ,?? ?? ???????? ??????? ???? ??”? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ????, ?”? ?????? ??? ???? ?????

    R’ Moshe knew the Gemara in Berachos.

    #887062
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Look at the whole sugya and you will see that the gemoro understood that one ultimately had to work to be able to learn properly.

    I don’t see that, unless you mean because otherwise you will be hungry.

    In any event, there are many other gemaras which say the opposite. For example, in Eruvin 22a, Rav adda bar masna was going to learn and his wife asked him how she would feed their kids. His response: ???? ????? ?????, there are wild vegetables in the swamp.

    Also, that would mean that you think nobody should learn full time at all even for a few years. I didn’t think that was what you were arguing, and it certainly was not what I was responding to.

    #887063

    My argument has been that the vast majority of jungeleit would leave the kollels if they could go make an honest living.

    Many certainly would. That’s not the main point of your argument, though.

    #887064
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    daasjochid,popa: We are talking at crosspurposes: Of course, R’Moshe knew the (well-known) gemoro in berochos and there are some (isolated) places where you find that talmidei chachomim left their wives to fend for themselves (I think gittin 6a too)and the gemoro in berochos said as much-that many tried to learn and not work- and they did not succeed because one has to make a living and you cannot (should not!)rely uopn tsedakah or miracles.This view prevailed through gemoro times (most amoraim were business people), throughout the geonim’s time and well into the rishonim’s time (rashi was a wine merchant). For whatever reason, as the rishonim’s time ended, it became difficult for a talmid chcohom to concentrate on torah and work. Hence, the kessef mishne and later acharonim, who allowed people to take money for their learning-mainly rabbonim,Poskim and melamdim- so as to be able to live. But this did not mean that every person should throw off the “chyiuv’ of working and feeding his family (see the kessubah, see mishpotim). It only meant that some people could take money for their learning,unlike the rambam.

    This approach survived for hundreds of years. Of course, plenty of talmidei chachomim were subsidized by their families and their in’laws, at times maybe even from the “kuppas ho-ir” (see asoroh batlonim) but it WAS NOT A BLANKET POLICY FOR EVERYONE.

    Enter the late twentieth century and suddenly, every person has to learn and learn forever. Now, that is a radical departure from the past! This is at the center of my argument in the critique of the way kollels (and yeshivas) operate today.And, for our sins, in Eretz Yisroel, this has become a way of life- the army induction unfortunately gave many the excuse of lounging around and taking money frm the klal.

    As I said, I favor a complete amnesty for all kollel people- and an end to their financing from the government. let them all go out and be productive. let some remain in kollel- the ones who deserve it and let these ones stay fore a while before going out and doing “meleches hakodesh”. The financial benefit from all of this would be huge- the municipalities would have more money, the ones who would be able to go out and work properly would become financially independent, the wives would not have to go out and work , the ones who would stay in kollel would get more money and live normally…etc…

    Once that is accepted, one can turn to the question of army service- or any other national service. I am confident that a compromise can then be found. But, until the chareidim insist on everyone being exempt and receiving stipends, we are at an impasse.

    #887065
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Well, then. That was what I thought you meant that entire time.

    And to that I responded by pointing out that the percentage of men who only learn seems like a pretty reasonably percentage, since it is probably about 1%, and that I have no idea what you mean when you say that it has become “a blanket policy for everyone”.

    #887066
    hello99
    Participant

    As I mentioned myself earlier, my primary disagreement with you is over the style of your comments more than their substance. The bottom line is that you come across as condescending and resentful of those who nobly dedicate their lives to the Torah, which strengthens the position of those who wish to uproot Torah study altogether.

    #887067
    hello99
    Participant

    Not at all. There are numerous possible resolutions. Many of them do not necessitate interpreting the Rambam to mean the opposite of what he says.

    #887068
    hello99
    Participant

    Again, you are speculating about something you know nothing about. As one with decades of personal experience with these people, the leaders of the campaign and many of their followers are motivated by something that can only be accurately described as anti-Semitism. Like many before them, they have learned how to couch their true feelings in language that is socially acceptable.

    #887069
    hello99
    Participant

    #887070
    hello99
    Participant

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