November 20, 2016 5:10 am at 5:10 am #1193333
LB- In the case in the Tanach, the problem was that he didn’t want to get married at all, not that he didn’t want to marry a specific person. That is completely different. Also, he was a man, and men have a chiyuv to get married and women don’t.
I disagree with this idea that it is a lack of bitachon to take heriditary factors into account. You have to be rational about it, and of course, you can’t refuse to marry anyone who has something in their family that could possibly be hereditary (that would kind of limit your choices to 0).
However, if it is known that there is a particular issue in that person’s family, and it is known that it is something very hereditary (and since we are talking about emotional issues, one must also take into account, the possibility of the particular issue being passed down through “nurture” as well as “nature”), it is responsible and appropriate to consider if this is something that you, personally are capable of dealing with.
There is a reason why Dor Yesharim has haskamos from Gedolim.
That being said, of course, one has to have bitachon and can’t go crazy about hereditary factors. They should consider carefully if this person is someone who would be worth marrying despite whatever risks are involved to their future kids, and if they would end up regretting not marrying the person.
But there are two sides to the equation, and it is only responsible to weigh both of them, imho.November 20, 2016 5:27 am at 5:27 am #1193334
In terms of its not being fair to decline to marry someone because they have a quality that they can’t help, I disagree with that premise.
Would you marry someone who has bad middos because he can’t help it? Usually when people have bad middos, it is not their fault – it is the result of nature and nurture. People don’t choose to have bad middos, and we are supposed to be “dan l’kaf zchus” that everyone is doing the best with what he is given.
Basically, you can say that about every trait – that it is not his fault so it is unfair to decline to marry him because of it.
We are not supposed to just marry anyone. We are supposed to choose whom to marry based on the traits that they have and determining if these traits would make them compatible for you.
We have no way of knowing who is beshert -that is exactly the way in which we try to figure it out – by looking at their traits and thinking about if they have the traits that would work for you.
And the difference between a physical ailment and an emotional one is that an emotional one does often affect the person’s middos/personality traits (perhaps a physical one can as well, and in that case, that may be a legitimate reason not to go out with the person). Just like you wouldn’t want to marry someone who has bad middos but doesn’t have a syndrome to blame it on, why should you want to marry someone who has bad middos just because he can give it a name.
According to your logic, there is no reason to ever say no to any shidduch, and shidduchim should just be made randomly. There is a story in the Gemara about someone who tried to do that, and it was a failure.November 20, 2016 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #1193335
LU -“If he should be on medication for anxiety and isn’t, I would be able to tell when I go out with him.”
How in the world would you be able to tell from a few dates?!?November 20, 2016 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #1193336
WS -“And a good chunk of the above argument came from someone very close to me in her decision to go on meds even as she was concerned about shidduchim.”
I would definitely go out with such a person! She seems like a person who deals with her problems’. A lot of people are just in denial, even when it’s obvious that they’re problematic people!November 20, 2016 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #1193337
We must also remember that anxiety can also indicate a clash between one’s environment and oneself. The person can be totally functioning but in a totally unsuitable social climate. If someone experiences anxiety for a prolonged period of time, chronically, then in some cases anxiety could become second-nature.
When we cannot change our environment, then yes sometimes we can change ourselves to adapt.
lilmod ulelamaid: Are we talking about the same story? It’s where the man doesn’t want to have children (even if it’s about marriage, per se) because he had some sort of prophetic information that told him that he would be giving birth to a dangerous son, something like this. This wasn’t Issac right? No I don’t remember.
Anyway, it was about him asserting control of whether or not his offspring deserved to be born. The point was that we don’t make that decision.
The same is true in halacha. Abortion for the sake of the mother’s life, is permitted because the fetus is a rodef. Yet, from what I’ve learned, if the same woman simple wanted to abort the child because of an issue with the baby (generally speaking), then it’s not her place to make that choice. That’s intervening with Hashem’s Will.
Yet…. we do see that some rabbonim do recommend genetic testing for high risk couples for Tay Sachs. So if both parents have the genes, then oh well, it’s not beshert.
Finding the right person to marry isn’t black and white.
I agree with you that we have to use our head in this matter, to help guide the heart. It requires thought and discernment.
ThanksNovember 20, 2016 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #1193338
“A lot of people are just in denial, even when it’s obvious that they’re problematic people!”
That sentence I definitely agree with! I definitely know people who need help and don’t seem to be getting it, and I definitely agree that it is better to get help if you need it.
I just don’t think that one should be critical of those who feel that it is not the right decision for them to go out with someone on medication for anxiety, etc.November 21, 2016 1:11 am at 1:11 am #1193339
“I just don’t think that one should be critical of those who feel that it is not the right decision for them to go out with someone on medication for anxiety, etc. “
Totally okay for someone to not be with someone based on this person taking medication for anxiety. We all have different needs and circumstances that influence our choices.
I have even heard doctors warn someone against dating someone else with a similar condition. It’s not a judgment against the person. Rather, seeing whether together they bring out each others’ strengths, especially in the long run. So even the person with anxiety may not even want to date someone else with anxiety. Who knows. Anything is possible.
There are posters speaking up against this because of stigma. It is unfortunate if someone is overlooked for something that another person may see as a strength, and another as not a big deal at all. Thankfully we are all different and have different needs.
Ultimately you have to do what is right and healthiest for you.November 21, 2016 1:37 am at 1:37 am #1193340
‘I have even heard doctors warn someone against dating someone else with a similar condition.”
When I spoke about hereditariness, I was actually thinking about the problems involved with going out with someone who has something that also runs in your own family. If both sides have something, there is likely to be a much greater risk of the kids having it.
The story from Tanach is from the Navi. The child was Menashe who was a really big Rasha. I think his father was Chizkiyahu Hamelech. The problem was that he didn’t want to have kids and men have a chiyuv to have kids.
In our case, we are talking about someone who has several suggestions and decides to go out with the one who has no known hereditary conditions as opposed to the one who has a genetic condition that he/she is not sure that he can handle.
Thanks a lot for your validation, Lightbrite. You are probably right that people are upset about the stigma, but I think that people should also not stigmatize people who don’t want to go out with people who have certain conditions. There can be very valid reasons for this.
No one is perfect and no one can expect to marry someone perfect. Each person has to think about what is right for him/her and what he/she can handle, and no one should judge another’s decision.November 21, 2016 3:45 am at 3:45 am #1193341
lilmod ulelamaid: <3November 21, 2016 3:51 am at 3:51 am #1193342
LU -“no one can expect to marry someone perfect”
I expect to marry s/o perfect, because I’m perfect!November 21, 2016 4:28 am at 4:28 am #1193343
“LU -“no one can expect to marry someone perfect”
“I expect to marry s/o perfect, because I’m perfect!”
That’s exactly why you shouldn’t then. Didn’t you know that “opposites attract”? Or to put in a more Torahdik lashon, you are supposed to marry someone who is “mashlim” you.
THAT is why I am looking for someone perfect – because I am not, and I need someone to be “mashlim” me!November 21, 2016 4:54 am at 4:54 am #1193344
LU -“THAT is why I am looking for someone perfect – because I am not, and I need someone to be “mashlim” me!”
There’s no such thing!
My line was a joke.November 21, 2016 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #1193345
I know. So was mine.November 21, 2016 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #1193346
Although it is true that I am looking for someone who is better than me in some of my weak points, and I am willing to marry someone who is somewhat weaker than me in my strong ones.November 21, 2016 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #1193347
LU -“Didn’t you know that “opposites attract”?”
Not always! Your posts are always opposite from mine!November 21, 2016 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #1193348
“opposites attract” only works in terms of certain types of traits.
And even in terms of those traits, there has to be some similarity.November 22, 2016 1:46 am at 1:46 am #1193349
“Not always! Your posts are always opposite from mine!”
Health, lucky you!!!
It’s Opposite Day 😉
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