Would you marry…?

oom- ok i hear you. im just saying id rather not enter a marriage with the chance that if a wife forgets her meds for two days theres a chance she’ll attack her kid with a cleaver. personal preference.

again, i said- “with the chance”. obviously not all do or we would have very strict laws governing their existence.

Who do you think threw all those people over this past year onto subway tracks? Girl scouts? No, it was people with schizophrenia off their meds.

Andrea Yates, who murdered her kids, was bipolar. Adam Lanza from Newtown was mentally ill.

How many cases do you hear about women becoming abused and then agunos by bipolar men?

Knowing before that they are homicidal? Yes, that would be different. (You misunderstood my point.)

And I am personally aware of several cases where people suffered from depression brought on by different circumstances, dealt with it, and are perfectly normal and well-adjusted today. Still, I wouldn’t make assumptions based on my experience–which is why I would look into the matter carefully.

There is a fine line between evil and insanity. And there is a reason for the term “criminally insane.”

I would never allow my child to marry a meshugenneh. Ever. Too many dangers and hassles and headaches.

There should be shadchanim who match the mentally ill. Although genetically, this is probably bad.

Hashem, for some reason, decided to make someone meshugenneh, and they deserve the same respect as someone who is physically ill.

But maybe there were learning differences that turned into mental health issues. I know for me, I had a number of developmental issues as a kid, and I, Baruch Hashem, got soooo close to normal, that all anyone could do for me was medicate me in order to neutralize the rest of my issues, hence the reasons that I am on ADHD, Depression meds… etc. If I did not have to overcome developmental difficulties, I would not be on my medications because I would not have been able to verbally explain how I am feeling and my symptoms.

How is that so awful? I overcame most of my issues, Baruch Hashem I am able to communicate to people!!! Some people might struggle with other things such as tying their shoes for their entire life, or even with memory issues, and they aren’t always able to overcome those issues. I am glad that I have been able to overcome many nisyonos over my life time. Baruch Hashem!

gotcha.

I agree. For me, since I have had so many experiences this past year and last year with people who did not understand my issues giving me a hard time about things that they knew when I started interacting with them, I don’t want to get divorced chas veshalom, so I would end up taking a potential spouse with me on a visit to my doctor so that we can discuss things like having kids, and have some marriage therapy sessions a few times before getting married and ideally at least for the first six months after so that we can get started on the right foot.

I find this topic most amusing. You people have turned back the clock on the strides us professionals have made in eliminating the Stigma of Mental Illness in the Frum community. It’s amazing how the Frum community is lagging so far behind the rest of the world. Now I know that Mentally Ill Should Not get married. If this would be true many here in the CR should not get married.

1 out of 4 people are mentally ill. It’s better to know s/o is Mentally Ill and is being treated, not like most people out there who don’t know. You have just given more of a reason why in the Frum community people don’t go for help because they will be stigmatized for it.

The truth is the vast majority of Mentally Ill can get married, but there are a very few at the extreme ends that maybe shouldn’t.

The way Mental Illness is portrayed here is you make it sound e/o who is ill is from the extreme ends of psychosis. Nothing could be further from the Truth.

the strides us professionals have made

Wait, you are a psychologist?

And actually, this discussion reminds me of another anecdote with my friend the alter bochur who didn’t go to shachris and once demanded a second date when he went out of town to Queens.

Once a family friend wanted to set him up, but she asked if he would be ok with a girl whose mother is a giores. So he said he would be fine with it. But of course he didn’t go out with her; he was just saying he would to be friendly.

I would rush to the Chuppo tonite or even tomorrow morning in the 1st third of the day when we could still have a formal Seudo with haMotzi, so that I am not stuck waiting 33 days until Lag b’Omer, but only 1 issue is preventing me from doing so:- I am already married, and polygamy is a Federal offence in the United States of America.

Good point OOM.

I wouldn’t get involved with a woman who had any chashashot with conversion; a woman’s status affects children, and with the mishegoss nowadays with conversion, that is a big risk to take.

I would not marry a convert, absolutely not.

I was raised Jewish, in any event. With Sephardic minhagim (my father is Sephardic and married a non-Orthodox “giyoret”). I was chozer be teshuva, and in all of my years of being Orthodox, was never treated as anything other than a baal teshuva. It was treated as a pro forma, administrative matter that had to be dealt with for halakhic reasons, and it certainly didn’t mark any major changes in how I felt about myself.

I always identified with my father’s “half” and never felt anything but. The concept of zera yisrael is a most powerful one, and was dealt with thoroughly by the Mishpetei Uziel and other poskim.

In any event, given the situation today, I would not encourage marriage to a female convert, as that affects the status of children. If someone decides the father isn’t adequately Jewish, the children aren’t affected l’kol davar.

I also would not be able to relate too well to someone raised with Xmas, treif food, going to church, or with Catholic or Protestant cultural norms. Zera yisrael recognizes a genetic component to being Jewish, and that is something that the giyoret lacks (unless she was raised similarly). There are just certain norms, attitudes, and cultural identity markers that you get from being raised by a Jewish parent and in a Jewish home. I carried a Jewish upbringing and Jewish experiences for 20 years before dipping in a mikvah- Jewish camping, brit milah, bar mitzvah, Hebrew school, learning Pirkei Avot, learning Humash with Rashi, Onkelos, and both modern and traditional commentaries, learning Nach, even taking introductory Talmud instruction, Temple membership, Pesah sedarim, High Holidays, kashering the home for Pesah, Shabbat dinners, building and decorating the sukkah, birkat hamazon, kiddush, a kosher home, not ever eating non-kosher meat, mezuzot, participation in Jewish pluralistic forums and venues, Jewish communal involvement (UJA, JCRC, AJC, Israel Day Parade, anti-missionary work, 92 Street Y, my local JCC, etc.) Zionism, NFTY, nusah hatefillah, trope, etc. I am proud of my upbringing, and see it as giving me a good foundation. I merely decided to enhance my observance level later on in life, and in accepting the halakhic system, I had to acknowledge that I had to make my own status in line with the halakhic system. In fact, before becoming frum, I was determined to major in Jewish Studies, go to Pardes in Israel for 2 years (a pluralistic yeshiva founded by haRav Doniel Landes, shlita), and go to HUC-JIR in either NYC or Cincinnati for ordination, and get a PhD in Jewish Studies. But HaShem had other plans for me, and here I am.

So while technically, I did have to dip in a mikvah, sociologically and psychologically, I am really a baal teshuva, not a ger. I changed denominations, not religions.

My mother had a “questionable” conversion, thereby resulting in many of the issues I had later on life. I wouldn’t want my children to suffer the same fate.

Read the sefer of R’ Haim Amsallem, the teshuvot of Mishpetei Uziel, Melamed LeHoil, Drishat Tzion, and others.

Even R’ Moshe Feinstein was sensitive to the concept.

I learned thoroughly the Sefer Zera Yisrael. I am thankful that there are rabbanim who hold like the Mishpetei Uziel.

edited

In addition, almost every major bet din in America gives special consideration to people who come having already identified with Judaism in one way or another. Obviously, a complete gentile who knows little or nothing about being Jewish is a different case than someone who has been already a part of the Jewish community.

edited

The Reform/Conservative communities are not a Jewish community.

PBA -“Wait, you are a psychologist?”

No.

“Actually, I think that is the fault of you professionals who are trying to remove the stigma. You (plural) argue that I should marry someone who is schizophrenic, and then are surprised when I refuse and in doing so lump everyone together. You are the ones who in your zeal to grab merubah, don’t tafasta.”

Actually you just proved my point. Most schizophrenics are probably in the realm of psychotics. So I never advocated anyone marrying psychotics. But what you did is refer to most of the mentally ill as schizophrenics. This is Motzay Shem Ra on most mentally ill.

Like I said above, most mentally ill people are Not psychotics and can function and get married like e/o else!