February 23, 2013 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #940988
oom- ok i hear you. im just saying id rather not enter a marriage with the chance that if a wife forgets her meds for two days theres a chance she’ll attack her kid with a cleaver. personal preference.February 24, 2013 2:45 am at 2:45 am #940989
Not all mentally ill people are violent. I have a relative with Schizophrenia, which is often depicted as an illness where the person is capable of hurting others. This person has never committed any violent acts, even when off meds.February 24, 2013 3:02 am at 3:02 am #940990
again, i said- “with the chance”. obviously not all do or we would have very strict laws governing their existence.February 24, 2013 3:15 am at 3:15 am #940991
Toi: And I am saying that that that is a false assumption based on a lack of data and no small amount of undue prejudice.
Obviously I am not interested in marrying someone who would attack people with meat cleavers. I would not, however, write off someone with an emotional or mental disorder as potentially homicidal. For one–if I did so, I would have to write off the rest of humanity as well, since every last one of them has the potential to become mentally ill.
Also, I am not trying to say that I would totally be okay with any sort of illness at any stage of treatment. Some mental illnesses have more serious implications. The OP specifically asked about depression, to which I responded that it would depend on the circumstances surrounding the depression and how it was being/had been handled. Other illnesses, especially ongoing, would definitely give me more pause.February 24, 2013 3:21 am at 3:21 am #940992
Who do you think threw all those people over this past year onto subway tracks? Girl scouts? No, it was people with schizophrenia off their meds.
Andrea Yates, who murdered her kids, was bipolar. Adam Lanza from Newtown was mentally ill.
How many cases do you hear about women becoming abused and then agunos by bipolar men?February 24, 2013 3:24 am at 3:24 am #940993
oom- “if I did so, I would have to write off the rest of humanity as well”
i mentioned in my first post that knowing before is different.
with regards to your second point, im aware personally of several cases of people with depression who harmed others or killed themselves. im not biting.February 24, 2013 3:38 am at 3:38 am #940994
Knowing before that they are homicidal? Yes, that would be different. (You misunderstood my point.)
And I am personally aware of several cases where people suffered from depression brought on by different circumstances, dealt with it, and are perfectly normal and well-adjusted today. Still, I wouldn’t make assumptions based on my experience–which is why I would look into the matter carefully.February 24, 2013 4:58 am at 4:58 am #940995
rebdoniel-believe it or not, you do not have to be mentally ill to kill someone. Murders take place because of revenge, greed, or just plain evil. There was a study done that revealed most mass murders are not mentally ill, since they plan out their attack, which most mentally ill people are not capable of with their disordered thinking. Mental illness is not something to be taken lightly, but that does not mean you have to write people off right away because of their illness.February 24, 2013 6:49 am at 6:49 am #940996
There is a fine line between evil and insanity. And there is a reason for the term “criminally insane.”
I would never allow my child to marry a meshugenneh. Ever. Too many dangers and hassles and headaches.
There should be shadchanim who match the mentally ill. Although genetically, this is probably bad.February 24, 2013 10:32 am at 10:32 am #940997
oom- ok, we’ll agree to disagree. i think its a serious enough con that would cause me to write off a shidduch. like akin to hearing her father was in jail. yes, he couldve been innocent, a victim of circumstance, but i’d probably say no flat out.February 24, 2013 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #940998
Hashem, for some reason, decided to make someone meshugenneh, and they deserve the same respect as someone who is physically ill.February 24, 2013 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #940999MorahRachMember
I know a few people who suffer from depression who, when taking their Meds, are happy upbeat , non violemt members of society. I also know that my cousins mother suffers from it and refuses to take her meds, and has had to be institutionalized on and off for the past 10 or so years. She purposely served treif chicken to my cousins family because at times her illness causes her to be spiteful. There is a difference between writing someone off , off the bat and just taking precautions.February 24, 2013 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #941000
But maybe there were learning differences that turned into mental health issues. I know for me, I had a number of developmental issues as a kid, and I, Baruch Hashem, got soooo close to normal, that all anyone could do for me was medicate me in order to neutralize the rest of my issues, hence the reasons that I am on ADHD, Depression meds… etc. If I did not have to overcome developmental difficulties, I would not be on my medications because I would not have been able to verbally explain how I am feeling and my symptoms.February 25, 2013 2:33 am at 2:33 am #941001☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Oy nebach, Hashem yerachem!February 25, 2013 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #941002
How is that so awful? I overcame most of my issues, Baruch Hashem I am able to communicate to people!!! Some people might struggle with other things such as tying their shoes for their entire life, or even with memory issues, and they aren’t always able to overcome those issues. I am glad that I have been able to overcome many nisyonos over my life time. Baruch Hashem!February 27, 2013 12:45 pm at 12:45 pm #941003danielaParticipant
Snowbunny I think there is a misunderstanding and DY referred to the story posted by MorahRach. I remember thinking something very similar (I did not post, but my feelings were the same). Your post must have been still in moderation at the time DY was writing.February 27, 2013 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #941004
gotcha.February 27, 2013 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #941005thehockMember
For anyone who would consider marrying a person with a history of depression, it is crucial for you to review with their mental health provider the presence of suicidal thoughts, plans and/or attempts.February 27, 2013 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #941006
I agree. For me, since I have had so many experiences this past year and last year with people who did not understand my issues giving me a hard time about things that they knew when I started interacting with them, I don’t want to get divorced chas veshalom, so I would end up taking a potential spouse with me on a visit to my doctor so that we can discuss things like having kids, and have some marriage therapy sessions a few times before getting married and ideally at least for the first six months after so that we can get started on the right foot.March 24, 2013 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #941007FrumGeekMember
I rejected a girl b/c i found out she had a mental illness. It isn’t that I couldn’t handle it (though honestly i dont know if i could’ve) but its just that, if given the option, I dont want to “go into a sick bed”.March 24, 2013 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #941008HealthParticipant
I find this topic most amusing. You people have turned back the clock on the strides us professionals have made in eliminating the Stigma of Mental Illness in the Frum community. It’s amazing how the Frum community is lagging so far behind the rest of the world. Now I know that Mentally Ill Should Not get married. If this would be true many here in the CR should not get married.
1 out of 4 people are mentally ill. It’s better to know s/o is Mentally Ill and is being treated, not like most people out there who don’t know. You have just given more of a reason why in the Frum community people don’t go for help because they will be stigmatized for it.
The truth is the vast majority of Mentally Ill can get married, but there are a very few at the extreme ends that maybe shouldn’t.
The way Mental Illness is portrayed here is you make it sound e/o who is ill is from the extreme ends of psychosis. Nothing could be further from the Truth.March 24, 2013 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #9410092scentsParticipant
Should they get married? yes.
However would YOU marry someone that is mentally ill?
Just because it is not more than any illness, does not change the fact that it is an illness.March 24, 2013 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #941010
the strides us professionals have made
Wait, you are a psychologist?March 24, 2013 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #941011
The way Mental Illness is portrayed here is you make it sound e/o who is ill is from the extreme ends of psychosis. Nothing could be further from the Truth.
Actually, I think that is the fault of you professionals who are trying to remove the stigma. You (plural) argue that I should marry someone who is schizophrenic, and then are surprised when I refuse and in doing so lump everyone together. You are the ones who in your zeal to grab merubah, don’t tafasta.March 24, 2013 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #941012
And actually, this discussion reminds me of another anecdote with my friend the alter bochur who didn’t go to shachris and once demanded a second date when he went out of town to Queens.
Once a family friend wanted to set him up, but she asked if he would be ok with a girl whose mother is a giores. So he said he would be fine with it. But of course he didn’t go out with her; he was just saying he would to be friendly.March 24, 2013 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #941013
It’s amazing how the Frum community is lagging so far behind the rest of the world.
The way Mental Illness is portrayed here is you make it sound e/o who is ill is from the extreme ends of psychosis. Nothing could be further from the Truth.
thisMarch 24, 2013 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #941014147Participant
I would rush to the Chuppo tonite or even tomorrow morning in the 1st third of the day when we could still have a formal Seudo with haMotzi, so that I am not stuck waiting 33 days until Lag b’Omer, but only 1 issue is preventing me from doing so:- I am already married, and polygamy is a Federal offence in the United States of America.March 24, 2013 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #941015kwaikerMember
147: Some Mormons do it, and so can you. (Just don’t register it with the municipal marriage registrar and you’ll be okay.)March 24, 2013 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #941016Torah613TorahParticipant
Good point OOM.March 25, 2013 5:07 am at 5:07 am #941017
Health deserves the credit for that oneMarch 25, 2013 10:39 am at 10:39 am #941018
I wouldn’t get involved with a woman who had any chashashot with conversion; a woman’s status affects children, and with the mishegoss nowadays with conversion, that is a big risk to take.March 25, 2013 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #941019abra cadabraParticipant
rebdoniel: As a convert yourself, you wouldn’t marry a convert??March 25, 2013 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #941020
I would not marry a convert, absolutely not.
I was raised Jewish, in any event. With Sephardic minhagim (my father is Sephardic and married a non-Orthodox “giyoret”). I was chozer be teshuva, and in all of my years of being Orthodox, was never treated as anything other than a baal teshuva. It was treated as a pro forma, administrative matter that had to be dealt with for halakhic reasons, and it certainly didn’t mark any major changes in how I felt about myself.
I always identified with my father’s “half” and never felt anything but. The concept of zera yisrael is a most powerful one, and was dealt with thoroughly by the Mishpetei Uziel and other poskim.
In any event, given the situation today, I would not encourage marriage to a female convert, as that affects the status of children. If someone decides the father isn’t adequately Jewish, the children aren’t affected l’kol davar.
I also would not be able to relate too well to someone raised with Xmas, treif food, going to church, or with Catholic or Protestant cultural norms. Zera yisrael recognizes a genetic component to being Jewish, and that is something that the giyoret lacks (unless she was raised similarly). There are just certain norms, attitudes, and cultural identity markers that you get from being raised by a Jewish parent and in a Jewish home. I carried a Jewish upbringing and Jewish experiences for 20 years before dipping in a mikvah- Jewish camping, brit milah, bar mitzvah, Hebrew school, learning Pirkei Avot, learning Humash with Rashi, Onkelos, and both modern and traditional commentaries, learning Nach, even taking introductory Talmud instruction, Temple membership, Pesah sedarim, High Holidays, kashering the home for Pesah, Shabbat dinners, building and decorating the sukkah, birkat hamazon, kiddush, a kosher home, not ever eating non-kosher meat, mezuzot, participation in Jewish pluralistic forums and venues, Jewish communal involvement (UJA, JCRC, AJC, Israel Day Parade, anti-missionary work, 92 Street Y, my local JCC, etc.) Zionism, NFTY, nusah hatefillah, trope, etc. I am proud of my upbringing, and see it as giving me a good foundation. I merely decided to enhance my observance level later on in life, and in accepting the halakhic system, I had to acknowledge that I had to make my own status in line with the halakhic system. In fact, before becoming frum, I was determined to major in Jewish Studies, go to Pardes in Israel for 2 years (a pluralistic yeshiva founded by haRav Doniel Landes, shlita), and go to HUC-JIR in either NYC or Cincinnati for ordination, and get a PhD in Jewish Studies. But HaShem had other plans for me, and here I am.
So while technically, I did have to dip in a mikvah, sociologically and psychologically, I am really a baal teshuva, not a ger. I changed denominations, not religions.March 25, 2013 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #941021
I was thinking that rebdoniel, as a convert, is uniquely aware of the potential difficulties involved in validating a questionable conversion, and that is why he is saying he would not marry one.March 25, 2013 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #941022
My mother had a “questionable” conversion, thereby resulting in many of the issues I had later on life. I wouldn’t want my children to suffer the same fate.March 25, 2013 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #941023yitzchokmParticipant
I sorry, but the concept of “zera yisrael” is not recognized by most poskim as anything when it comes to the process of becoming a ger.
I know it’s a subject close to your heart but that doesn’t make it real.
Yes, while there are those who believe in the concept, hardly any see any halchak ramifications because of it.March 25, 2013 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #941024
Read the sefer of R’ Haim Amsallem, the teshuvot of Mishpetei Uziel, Melamed LeHoil, Drishat Tzion, and others.
Even R’ Moshe Feinstein was sensitive to the concept.
I learned thoroughly the Sefer Zera Yisrael. I am thankful that there are rabbanim who hold like the Mishpetei Uziel.
In addition, almost every major bet din in America gives special consideration to people who come having already identified with Judaism in one way or another. Obviously, a complete gentile who knows little or nothing about being Jewish is a different case than someone who has been already a part of the Jewish community.
editedMarch 25, 2013 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #941025
Why am I not surprised by the censorship?
I’m certainly not surprised, since I am the one who did it.
🙂March 25, 2013 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #941026abra cadabraParticipant
The Reform/Conservative communities are not a Jewish community.March 25, 2013 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #941027
Gut yontiff, Big BrotherMarch 28, 2013 6:22 am at 6:22 am #941028HealthParticipant
PBA -“Wait, you are a psychologist?”
“Actually, I think that is the fault of you professionals who are trying to remove the stigma. You (plural) argue that I should marry someone who is schizophrenic, and then are surprised when I refuse and in doing so lump everyone together. You are the ones who in your zeal to grab merubah, don’t tafasta.”
Actually you just proved my point. Most schizophrenics are probably in the realm of psychotics. So I never advocated anyone marrying psychotics. But what you did is refer to most of the mentally ill as schizophrenics. This is Motzay Shem Ra on most mentally ill.
Like I said above, most mentally ill people are Not psychotics and can function and get married like e/o else!
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