September 8, 2014 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #613618
Is there a positive way to digest this?
Bewildered?September 8, 2014 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #1031854
You don’t have to mention that he’s divorced. It’s actually none of their business.September 8, 2014 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #1031855Yonkar (Joseph)Member
They almost always ask before scheduling a showing of the apartment how big the family it is for, number and ages of children, what the adults do for a living, etc.September 8, 2014 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #1031856popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Children at home? What sort of “apartment” are you looking for? A room in someone’s house?September 8, 2014 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #1031857Avi KParticipant
In many states and localities it is illegal to discriminate on the basis of marital status.September 8, 2014 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #1031858Torah613TorahParticipant
Rebyidd has it right – why are you mentioning it? Just say he’s single.
This shouldn’t be such a big issue, unless he’s looking for a specific type of apartment that usually is rented by families.September 8, 2014 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #1031859ivoryMember
A married man can unfortunately also be a “predator”!September 8, 2014 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #1031860TheGoqParticipant
t613t you really think people have a higher opinion of an older single man than of a divorced man?September 8, 2014 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #1031861
The federal fair housing act prohibits discrimination on the basis of gender and familial status. “Familial status” excludes unmarried couples and it is still illegal for unmarried couples to live together in many states. It is unclear if denying a single unmarried person is covered by federal law. Probably not. However, under New york, New Jersey, Maryland and Massachusetts law it is quite clear that the behavior you’ve articulated is illegal and may be the basis of a civil lawsuit.
As a side note, my dream tenant would be single and financially stable. Furthermore, no laws require disclosure of these things or prevent subletting.
You can rent the apartment and then sublet or assign to your divorced relative without secular legal problems (unless otherwise specifically agreed with landlord).
Disclaimer: I am posting this anonymously with no representation that this post was made by a lawyer, and it should not be relied on as legal advice.September 8, 2014 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #1031862Torah613TorahParticipant
The Goq: I really have no idea what people think. I am sure there are different opinions on the matter.
But generally, it’s not a good idea to share too much personal information with potential landlords. The impression the OP should be going for is “older single guy with a good job who will pay rent on time” vs. “older divorced man who probably can’t discipline the kids he might have partial custody of”. It could be the very same person, but which one is more likely to sound like a good tenant.September 8, 2014 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #1031863TheGoqParticipant
Perhaps the op should call a landlord at two different times the first for a divorced friend and later for a single friend and see what happens it would be an interesting social experiment.September 8, 2014 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #1031864BasementDwellerParticipant
As a single guy who went through a similar thing I can guess which town it was. Let’s just say that it’s a place where everyone is expected to be a certain type and older single or divorced guy just isn’t the norm.
I hope 100 is an exaggeration. I did find a few options there, none which I liked. And I didn’t call 100 people.
In retrospect I’m happy that I couldn’t find something there as I soon after relocated to a different city where I had no trouble renting as a single and was more matzliach in many ways.
Maybe consider a different place. Why live somewhere you aren’t wanted or respected?September 9, 2014 2:45 am at 2:45 am #1031865JosephParticipant
Would they have the same concern renting to a single or divorced woman because she may be a stumbling block for the bochorim?September 9, 2014 3:49 am at 3:49 am #1031866
The lawyers in the room can correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that the owner of a two family house can discriminate based in the number of letters in the prospective tenant’s middle name, if he so desires.September 9, 2014 3:59 am at 3:59 am #1031867commonsenseParticipant
I had a single male relative in the situation a short while ago. It was heartbreaking how many rejections he received just because he was a single male. He ended up renting in an apartment building which is much less picky than a private homeowner.September 9, 2014 4:24 am at 4:24 am #1031868
DaasYochid, the type of discrimination you describe is not actually illegal in any situation. But other types are in any.September 9, 2014 4:24 am at 4:24 am #1031869–Participant
The federal fair housing act prohibits discrimination on the basis of gender and familial status.
But there is an exception for owner-occupied buildings with four or fewer rental units.September 9, 2014 5:00 am at 5:00 am #1031870
What do people seemingly find objectionable about renting to a single male?September 9, 2014 5:06 am at 5:06 am #1031871
RebYidd, is that true? If someone has an irrational hatred of people with middle names consisting of seven letters, they can discriminate in all situations?September 9, 2014 5:22 am at 5:22 am #1031872
Nobody would notice if they did and there is no law against it. There are specific laws against discriminating by race, marital status, etc.September 9, 2014 5:28 am at 5:28 am #1031873
Obviously, there is no law specifying that, but I’m wondering if the law would apply to unspecified bases for discrimination. The fact that it wouldn’t ordinarily be noticed is true, but I am curious about how the law looks at it anyhow.September 9, 2014 9:28 am at 9:28 am #1031874
Good point as far as federal law. Up to four units (if owner-occupied) would be exempt. In NJ and NY the exemption is limited to two units if owner occupied, or a room in a single family house even if not owner occupied.
Discrimination is something we all do at all times. Discrimination means to choose or favor. The question is whether the choice is made on the basis of a legally prohibited criterion.
Discrimination on the basis of length of last name (provided there is no correlation with a protected class, in which case the assumption would be that the last name is a pretext and the discrimination is really on the basis of the protected class) would be completely legal in all scenarios.September 9, 2014 11:44 am at 11:44 am #1031875JosephParticipant
So I’m required to rent to a Christian missionary?September 9, 2014 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #1031876🐵 ⌨ GamanitParticipant
You mentioned his financial stability, but what about his emotional stability? Why isn’t he doing these phone calls?September 9, 2014 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #1031877
Lior, you are not required to rent to a person you don’t want to rent to if you don’t like them personally.September 9, 2014 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #1031878
Rebyidd- again, provided that your “liked” people don’t correlate to a religion ethnicity etc.
Lior- if it’s not under a different exception, probably. You can probably require that the missionary not proselytize on or near premises. These things are hard to prove in court. Usually, “testers” are used to prove discrimination. In order to motivate anyone to send the expensive testers there would likely already be a significant situation. But who knows? Maybe you just gave all the numerous missionaries who are reading this a great idea!September 9, 2014 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #1031879Yonkar (Joseph)Member
By time the missionary/black/divorcee or whatever the illegal discrimination was based on was rejected for the apartment, the owner will have already rented it out to someone else and the only recourse would be at most a small first-time offense fine, if it ever got so far that they could even prove anything.September 9, 2014 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #1031880popa_bar_abbaParticipant
hmm. Looks like DY may be correct. do some googling on the federal housing equality act.September 9, 2014 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #1031881
popa: as noted above, dash and dy are correct, that most “lakewood-style” two family homes are excluded from federal and state housing equality law, if owner occupied.
Yonkar, the fine is far less relevant than a potential lawsuit. There have been successful lawsuits/settlements in which sympathetic minorities cited statistics about the differences between neighborhoods and won significant sums of money.
The key is being able to get a jury on your side. With missionaries this would probably be quite hard. Divorcees, not as much. African American, pretty easy.September 10, 2014 3:48 am at 3:48 am #1031882
Hi, nothing personnel intended but this thread sounds like a question answer forum with a lawyer! BasementDweller: Seems to have understood the issue. Clarification: This is not a legal question, it’s a “social” question, or maybe a “wake up cry” for those that understand the depth of where we have stooped.
Again does anyone have positive light to shine?
BewilderedSeptember 10, 2014 4:43 am at 4:43 am #1031883
I have no problem discussing it as a social issue, but I think I asked a very relevant question, which nobody has yet answered:
What do people seemingly find objectionable about renting to a single male?
To be more specific, is it discrimination based on class, or are there practical considerstions?
Regarding the specific case you mentioned, Gamanit made an excellent observation.September 10, 2014 8:21 am at 8:21 am #1031884
Popa bar Abba asked:
Children at home? What sort of “apartment” are you looking for? A room in someone’s house?
This has not yet been addressed. (I had thought of it too.)September 10, 2014 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #1031885
I think most of us assume it’s some type of two family house, likely a basement apartment. It’s quite reasonable and normal for someone to be particular about a tenant in that situation.September 10, 2014 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #1031886BasementDwellerParticipant
Their paranoid reason for refusal says more about them than about you.
When I was growing up in Boro Park, over a period of twenty years, my parents rented the basement to an assortment of odd characters including a divorced woman with a baby, a single Ger/Baal Teshuva (He wasn’t sure if he was born Jewish) and a 20 y/o OTD kid who smoked marijuana with his hippie friends. For the most part they paid their rent on time and we never had the slightest problem relating to them ‘preying’ on anyone.September 11, 2014 12:22 am at 12:22 am #1031887Baruch10901Participant
I am going to be banned for my answer.So you guys know what I was going to say anywaySeptember 11, 2014 12:42 am at 12:42 am #1031888
Their paranoid reason for refusal says more about them than about you.
What is their paranoid reason, and what does it say?September 11, 2014 12:55 am at 12:55 am #1031889
Baruch, there are very many answers that you would be banned for giving. But are you one of those who said no?September 11, 2014 1:01 am at 1:01 am #1031890🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
Again does anyone have positive light to shine?
Yes, I have my doubts that it really happenedSeptember 11, 2014 1:30 am at 1:30 am #1031891
Having reread the OP, I’m with Syag. I’m highly skeptical that someone would actually tell someone that they’re nervous that his relative is a stalker or predator.September 11, 2014 1:54 am at 1:54 am #1031892
Exaggeration is different from making up stories.September 11, 2014 2:44 am at 2:44 am #1031893
And I’ve told you a million times to stop exaggerating.September 11, 2014 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #1031894
I’m sorry to be off topic, but I know Daas Yochid is watching this thread.
DY – You posted these lyrics in the old “Name That Tune!” thread.
You mentioned them being from an old song. What is it?
There is no gloom like the darkness of the lonely; there is no chill like the cold of despair. No solitude like a person abandoned for expressing a desire, his heritage to share.September 11, 2014 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #1031895
I forget the name. It was about a lonely divorced guy who couldn’t find an apartment.September 11, 2014 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #1031896
I laughed. But that doesn’t make the song show up on Google.
Do you remember who sang it?
(Seriously, the only Google result for each lyric is that thread.
Maybe I should start a new one.)September 11, 2014 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #1031897September 11, 2014 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #1031898
I hope nobody is offended by this mention of the awful mistakes in the title.September 12, 2014 2:05 am at 2:05 am #1031899
1)Most of these rentals are not legal in the first place, so for those obsessing themselves with legalities…
2) Gamanit: (Maybe a corded keyboard would help?) “You mentioned his financial stability, but what about his emotional stability? Why isn’t he doing these phone calls?” Would you want to deal with this rejection? Or discrimination directly, or would it be more comfortable for someone to deal for you? (Corded Keyboard)
3) DaasYochid: “Having reread the OP, I’m with Syag. I’m highly skeptical that someone would actually tell someone that they’re nervous that his relative is a stalker or predator”. I would be skeptical too! Why would people act like this, that’s all included in my original question, your basically saying wow this is crazy, duh.
Sof davar everyone here seems to agree this is out of whack, no positive light to shine.
To conclude I strongly suggest divorcees to follow up on BasementDweller’s advice, do not move to that town!
Veday lameivinSeptember 12, 2014 2:46 am at 2:46 am #1031900
1) The new ones are all built to code, and even the old ones are with the knowledge of the township, with the understanding that considering the high property taxes, it’s only fair to allow some rental income.
2) I think an emotionally stable person should be able to handle it.
3) No, I’m saying that you’re the one with the prejudice. V’day l’maven.September 12, 2014 2:55 am at 2:55 am #1031901
I’d been wondering what was up with all those links you’ve been posting, DaasYochid. But why? Why revive that thread? WHY?!
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