October 30, 2013 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #611108
Just heard a shiur brought down in the name of Shem Yechezkel that Rivka & Yitzchak originally had triplets and Dovid Hamelech was originally supposed to be the oldest sibling but he ended up being a stillborn. Did anyone ever hear such a thing?October 30, 2013 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #988154LevAryehMember
Shiv’im panim latorah.October 30, 2013 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #988155
Similar. Dovid was also Adom. I forgot where I saw this, but it was something to the tune of having fooled the Satan that Eisav was Dovid. This way he got busy with him instead of Yakov.October 30, 2013 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #988156
Dovid Hamelech was originally supposed to be the oldest sibling but he ended up being a stillborn.
That directly contradicts the verse which states that there were twins in Rivka’s womb.
The WolfOctober 30, 2013 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #988157
HaLevi: Yes, that was also discussed in the shiur
The Wolf: Maybe after Dovid was stillborn – There were twins remaining in Rivka’s womb.October 30, 2013 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #988158sonMember
Haven’t heard of it – would be interested in seeing a mekor.October 30, 2013 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #988159
The Wolf: Maybe after Dovid was stillborn – There were twins remaining in Rivka’s womb.
Are you claiming that Rivka went into birth, gave birth to a stillborn, *then* ran off to receive her prophecy, and then returned to give birth to the remaining twins?
The WolfOctober 30, 2013 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #988160Sam2Participant
HaLeiVi: The Midrash (Tanchuma B’reishis, maybe) says that David was supposed to be a stillborn but Adam HaRishon gave up 70 of his 1000 years to David. That’s why he only lived 930.October 30, 2013 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #988161jewishfeminist02Member
“Maybe after Dovid was stillborn – There were twins remaining in Rivka’s womb.”
Vayiml’u yameha laledet. It is clearly stated that she was bearing twins long before she actually gave birth to any child.October 30, 2013 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #988162rabbiofberlinParticipant
who is the “shem jechezkel”? I never heard of this theory,including the fact that Dovid Hamelech was there. I don’t think this ma’amar makes any sense.
There is a more concrete connection between Dovid hamelech and Adam Horishon in that Dovid was supposed to be born and die right away ,so Adam gave seventy of his years to Dovid and therefore only lived to 930 years and Dovid lived seventy years.October 30, 2013 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #988163
Shem Yechezkel was written by a big Talmid Chacham currently living in Williamsburg – he brings down this Chazal from a sefer called “Sefer Maseh Cheishev” (Sefardi Mekubal) – has anybody ever heard of this sefer?October 30, 2013 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #988164GG yekkeMember
WolfishMusings: Im not saying this is p’shat but what Outreach613 could be correct.
It says that Shem told Rivka that ‘there are two nations in your womb’
then it says that ‘her time came to give birth and there were twins in her womb’ – it could be that either she gave birth to a still born and then the posuk is refering to after that ‘and there were twins in her womb’ or the torah is only telling us about the ‘alive babies’ so it says that ‘there were twins in her womb’ – two living babiesOctober 30, 2013 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #988165–Participant
What problem is he rectifying by saying there were triplets?October 30, 2013 11:21 pm at 11:21 pm #988166
Sam, he was supposed to live for three hours, not a stillborn.
Anyhow, that has little to do with what I mentioned. Did you bring it up for any specific purpose?October 31, 2013 1:18 am at 1:18 am #988167
In case you want to know what the problem is with saying there was any kind of birth before Yakov and Eisav, if that were the case then neither Yakov or Eisav are Bechorim.November 20, 2013 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #988168on the ballParticipant
To The Wolf:
The Torah says there were ‘Teomim’ in her womb – and you are translating that as ‘twins’. However a more accurate translation/definition of the word ‘Teomim’ or ‘Teomos’ (feminine) is ‘children of a multiple pregnancy’ whether twins, triplets or more.
The proof I think is from a Rashi in last week’s sedra talking about Binyomin’s birth where he brings a Medrash that unlike the other brothers with whom only one ‘Teoma’ was born – an extra ‘Teoma’ (i.e. a triplet) was born with Binyomin.November 20, 2013 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #988169hudiParticipant
Haleivi – interesting, because we know that Dovid and Eisav were both “Adom – red”November 20, 2013 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #988170
Perhaps, perhaps not.
Bottom line, however, is that I don’t believe it. I stand firm in my belief that they were twins and no more.
The WolfNovember 21, 2013 12:39 am at 12:39 am #988171scrollerMember
I heard also that the avos gave years to Dovid. See below:
day long. Once He created Adam, He said, ‘Here, indeed, is his existence!’ So from Adam derived the 70 years for which King David endured in the world.
“Further, the patriarchs bequeathed some of their life to him, Abraham bequeathed to him, as did Jacob and Joseph; Isaac didn’t
bequeath anything to him because King David derived from his side. “Abraham bequeathed 5 years to him, since he should have endured for 180 years and he endured for 175, lacking 5. Jacob should have endured for the same number of days as Abraham, but he endured for only 147 years,
lacking 28. Consequently, Abraham and Jacob bequeathed 33 years of life. Joseph endured for 110 years and should have endured for 147 years, the same as Jacob, so 37 years were missing. Look! Seventy years, bequeathed by them to
King David, who endured for all those years bequeathed by the patriarchs.
~The ZoharNovember 21, 2013 4:29 am at 4:29 am #988172oomisParticipant
I personally only believe there were twins, but theoretically it IS possible for there to be another embryo that fails to develop further and is absorbed by the surviving embryo(s).November 21, 2013 4:33 am at 4:33 am #988173
I personally only believe there were twins, but theoretically it IS possible for there to be another embryo that fails to develop further and is absorbed by the surviving embryo(s).
Of course it’s *possible*. However, we tend to call those kids “twins” not “triplets.”
The WolfNovember 21, 2013 11:33 am at 11:33 am #988174SayIDidIt™Participant
Hello Wolf! Remember me??
SiDi™November 21, 2013 11:35 am at 11:35 am #988175SayIDidIt™Participant
SiDi™November 21, 2013 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #988176
Fancy words but bad sentences, in that translation from the Zohar Hakadosh — which is an odd idea in the first place.
Anyhow, Yalkut Reuveini is where I got what I mentioned earlier, that the Satan was tricked into thinking Esav was Dovid and was told that he will get him.November 21, 2013 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #988177–Participant
Back to the question at hand lets see which scenario is most likely.
Rivka felt a conflict within her unborn child. She went to ask a Navi and was told the conflict is among twins.
Rivka felt a conflict within her unborn child. She went to ask a Navi and was told the conflict is among triplets.
Rivka felt a conflict within her unborn child. She went to ask a Navi and was told the conflict is among quadruplets.
Rivka felt a conflict within her unborn child. She went to ask a Navi and was told the conflict is among quintuplets.
Et cetera.November 22, 2013 1:59 am at 1:59 am #988178Bookworm120Participant
I think Eisav killed it before it was born.
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