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Just heard a shiur brought down in the name of Shem Yechezkel that Rivka & Yitzchak originally had triplets and Dovid Hamelech was originally supposed to be the oldest sibling but he ended up being a stillborn. Did anyone ever hear such a thing?
Shiv’im panim latorah.
Similar. Dovid was also Adom. I forgot where I saw this, but it was something to the tune of having fooled the Satan that Eisav was Dovid. This way he got busy with him instead of Yakov.
Dovid Hamelech was originally supposed to be the oldest sibling but he ended up being a stillborn.
That directly contradicts the verse which states that there were twins in Rivka’s womb.
The Wolf
Haven’t heard of it – would be interested in seeing a mekor.
The Wolf: Maybe after Dovid was stillborn – There were twins remaining in Rivka’s womb.
Are you claiming that Rivka went into birth, gave birth to a stillborn, *then* ran off to receive her prophecy, and then returned to give birth to the remaining twins?
The Wolf
HaLeiVi: The Midrash (Tanchuma B’reishis, maybe) says that David was supposed to be a stillborn but Adam HaRishon gave up 70 of his 1000 years to David. That’s why he only lived 930.
“Maybe after Dovid was stillborn – There were twins remaining in Rivka’s womb.”
Vayiml’u yameha laledet. It is clearly stated that she was bearing twins long before she actually gave birth to any child.
who is the “shem jechezkel”? I never heard of this theory,including the fact that Dovid Hamelech was there. I don’t think this ma’amar makes any sense.
There is a more concrete connection between Dovid hamelech and Adam Horishon in that Dovid was supposed to be born and die right away ,so Adam gave seventy of his years to Dovid and therefore only lived to 930 years and Dovid lived seventy years.
WolfishMusings: Im not saying this is p’shat but what Outreach613 could be correct.
It says that Shem told Rivka that ‘there are two nations in your womb’
then it says that ‘her time came to give birth and there were twins in her womb’ – it could be that either she gave birth to a still born and then the posuk is refering to after that ‘and there were twins in her womb’ or the torah is only telling us about the ‘alive babies’ so it says that ‘there were twins in her womb’ – two living babies
What problem is he rectifying by saying there were triplets?
Sam, he was supposed to live for three hours, not a stillborn.
Anyhow, that has little to do with what I mentioned. Did you bring it up for any specific purpose?
In case you want to know what the problem is with saying there was any kind of birth before Yakov and Eisav, if that were the case then neither Yakov or Eisav are Bechorim.
To The Wolf:
The Torah says there were ‘Teomim’ in her womb – and you are translating that as ‘twins’. However a more accurate translation/definition of the word ‘Teomim’ or ‘Teomos’ (feminine) is ‘children of a multiple pregnancy’ whether twins, triplets or more.
The proof I think is from a Rashi in last week’s sedra talking about Binyomin’s birth where he brings a Medrash that unlike the other brothers with whom only one ‘Teoma’ was born – an extra ‘Teoma’ (i.e. a triplet) was born with Binyomin.
Haleivi – interesting, because we know that Dovid and Eisav were both “Adom – red”
Perhaps, perhaps not.
Bottom line, however, is that I don’t believe it. I stand firm in my belief that they were twins and no more.
The Wolf
I heard also that the avos gave years to Dovid. See below:
day long. Once He created Adam, He said, ‘Here, indeed, is his existence!’ So from Adam derived the 70 years for which King David endured in the world.
“Further, the patriarchs bequeathed some of their life to him, Abraham bequeathed to him, as did Jacob and Joseph; Isaac didn’t
bequeath anything to him because King David derived from his side. “Abraham bequeathed 5 years to him, since he should have endured for 180 years and he endured for 175, lacking 5. Jacob should have endured for the same number of days as Abraham, but he endured for only 147 years,
lacking 28. Consequently, Abraham and Jacob bequeathed 33 years of life. Joseph endured for 110 years and should have endured for 147 years, the same as Jacob, so 37 years were missing. Look! Seventy years, bequeathed by them to
King David, who endured for all those years bequeathed by the patriarchs.
~The Zohar
I personally only believe there were twins, but theoretically it IS possible for there to be another embryo that fails to develop further and is absorbed by the surviving embryo(s).
I personally only believe there were twins, but theoretically it IS possible for there to be another embryo that fails to develop further and is absorbed by the surviving embryo(s).
Of course it’s *possible*. However, we tend to call those kids “twins” not “triplets.”
The Wolf
Hello Wolf! Remember me??
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Fancy words but bad sentences, in that translation from the Zohar Hakadosh — which is an odd idea in the first place.
Anyhow, Yalkut Reuveini is where I got what I mentioned earlier, that the Satan was tricked into thinking Esav was Dovid and was told that he will get him.
Back to the question at hand lets see which scenario is most likely.
Rivka felt a conflict within her unborn child. She went to ask a Navi and was told the conflict is among twins.
Rivka felt a conflict within her unborn child. She went to ask a Navi and was told the conflict is among triplets.
Rivka felt a conflict within her unborn child. She went to ask a Navi and was told the conflict is among quadruplets.
Rivka felt a conflict within her unborn child. She went to ask a Navi and was told the conflict is among quintuplets.
Et cetera.
I think Eisav killed it before it was born.
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