Yartzeit – when niftar is in different time zone than his offspring

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Yartzeit – when niftar is in different time zone than his offspring

  • This topic has 14 replies, 6 voices, and was last updated 8 years ago by 147.
Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 15 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #607630
    shmendrick
    Member

    If someone is niftar on 3rd of Taamuz, but his offspring are in other parts of the world where it is 2nd or 4th of Taamuz, when is the yartzeit held – the date it was at the place of the niftar or the date it was at the place of his offspring?

    #917156
    147
    Participant

    The Johrzeit is positively & absolutely only held on the date of the location where the person expired:- i.e. in your case [or example?] on Tammuz 3rd.

    However, if the relative in question heard about this tragic loss and is not traveling to the interment, so would effectively commence laws of Shiva immediately, s/he would count the 7 & 30 days from his/her date of Tammuz 2nd or 4th respectively.

    If this relative then requires to fly across the Jewish date line during the Shiva, s/he would still observe his/her 7 days, even though this would if going from Far East to Far West would then be on his/her 6th Hebrew calendar date, or if going from Far West to Far East would then be on his/her 8th Hebrew calendar date.

    #917157
    americaisover
    Participant

    it is held on 3rd tammuz

    #917158
    shmendrick
    Member

    Do you have a source or is it your own sevarah?

    #917159
    147
    Participant

    Even if this expired individual had prayed early Maariv for Leil Tammuz 4th on afternoon of Tammuz 3rd, or had lit Shabbos candles & recited Kidddush on afternoon of Tammuz 3td for Tammuz 4th {not that this is feasible, since Tammuz 4th can never be on a Shabbos} and then expired before sundown, his/her Johrzeit is on Tammuz 3rd.

    If the person expired between sundown and emergence of 3 stars, approximately 38 minutes after sundown in the NYC area, this is way beyond the scope of this coffee Chat Room to determine if Johrzeit is on the outgoing or the incoming date. Check with the Rov of the deceased parent, so that entire family will end up holding the same Johrzeit.

    #917160
    shmendrick
    Member

    I saw that the Bircas Chaim s. 40 and Tshuvas Doda’ay Hasodeh s. 92 and Kolbo p. 396 hold that like all matters of Torah you go according to where the person is, and here the person is the OFFSPRING who are the ones that commemorate the yartzeit.

    It is a bit of a chiddush to me and counter-intuitive as most of Torah is “da’as balHabayis hepech Torah”.

    In contrast, the Gesher HaChaim ch. 32:14l Shut Chelkas Yaakov vol 2 s. 101, Shut Be’er Moshe vol 2 . 114 all hold that it goes according to the place of the niftar because it is for his neshama.

    Based on that, maybe some yartzeit hanhogos which are for tovas hames (like kaddish) should be commemorated according to the date at the place of niftar, while hanhogos that relate to the offspring (such as fasting, not making a simcha etc.) should be commemorated based according to the day of their location.

    That would result in a “split” yartzheit!

    #917161
    147
    Participant

    There is no such thing as a split Johrzeit.

    Yesodei Smochos Chapter 12 Paragraph 7 holds:- “If death occurred in a different time zone, The Johrzeit is kept according to the date in the place where death occurred.”

    i.e. All Johrzeit practices are observed on the date that was in force at locations of parent’s death.

    #917162
    shmendrick
    Member

    Maybe BOTH days should be kept to be yotzeh both shitos?

    #917163
    Nechomah
    Participant

    Shiva may be split depending on where the aveilim are and if they are coming to sit shiva in the same location together. There is a shita that the first yahrzeit is on the day of the kevura (1 year later obviously) and then the rest of the yahrzeits fall on the day of the petirah. That is how I observed aveilus for my parents, z”l.

    I was not able to go to the beis aveilim for either because of being so far away. My mother, a”h, was niftar erev Pesach and the kevura was on the first day of Chol haMoed. Shiva was observed after Pesach was over and the first yahrzeit was during Pesach, after that on erev Pesach.

    My father, z”l, was niftar on a Thursday night and I was notified on Friday morning. The kevura was not until Sunday morning. I was told by our Rav to begin sitting shiva immediately because I was not an onen and had no shaychus to the kevura, so I started immediately. My siblings began sitting shiva only after the kevura. Like with my mother, the first yahrzeit was on the day of the kevura and the following ones were on the day of the petirah.

    I know of a big Rav who was niftar in America on a Thursday night/Friday morning. The levaya was first in America and then the rest of the levaya and the kevura were in EY. We found out that they got up from shiva on Wednesday. Apparently some family members stayed behind and started the shiva process so it ended earlier. I’m not really sure how that worked.

    #917164
    147
    Participant

    was niftar erev Pesach and the kevura was on the first day of Chol haMoed.

    Hard to comprehend, because unlike case of Nechomah’s father’s passing away overlapping a Shabbos when Kevuraos are Ossur, yet despite the unfortunate timing of passing away of Nechomah’s mother, Kevuros are Mutor on Yom Tov, and even is preferable to delaying funeral just to increase the turn out. So why would this funeral have been pushed off for 3 days?

    #917165
    Nechomah
    Participant

    Well, the fact that the cemetery where my mother was to be buried was about 25 miles from where they lived and another 15 miles in the opposite direction to where the mes was located, they had no way to coordinate these things. In the shtetl where everything was together, things were much simpler, but in Los Angeles, where it is very spread out, not likely to happen so quickly.

    #917166
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Shmendrik, based upon your Chelm kashas, how did you qualify for kollel? Do you learn from the Classic Comics version of Shas?

    #917167
    shmendrick
    Member

    lesschumras, I never heard of Classic Comics version of Shas, but you are welcome to make jokes and mock, I view it as a zchus for me.

    #917168
    welldressed007
    Participant

    most of what we know regarding Availus is minhag, minhag, did i forget to say minhag. I have sat shiva three times for family and have learnt to understand the extremities according to various situations. By the way just in case for those who choose to berate and spew negative rhetoric the bais hamikdosh hashainy was destroyed, yes you guessed it sinas chinam. I feel it necessary to highlight as it appears some of you have forgotten this.

    Learning is challenging at best however if this is the end result of what our kollels are producing, such open and vial hatred then my friend i suggest you go back to learning basics.

    This is not about taking sides, remember, this is a public forum. Behazlocho to all of you. By the way i have sat shiva more than, once,twice, three and four times. You ask your Rov and follow that minhag that is what makes Am Yisroel so great. Bottom line we must be mindful, and yes respectful of another person’s minhag even if we disagree. So go ahead and bring all the proofs from here and there it is still minhag,(translates to CUSTOM)

    #917169
    147
    Participant

    That would result in a “split” yartzheit!

    Only scenario which can lead to a split Johrzeit is someone passing away in an Adar Poshut, and according to some opinions in leap years, s/he may have to observe both in Adar Rishon & Adar Sheni, but even then, only one time can s/he have Kedimo over other Aveilim, since intrinsically a Johrzeit can only be once.

    Likewise for someone who passed away on marCheshvon 30, Kisslev 30 or Adar Rishon 30, depending on what transpires the following year [by marCheshvon 30 & Kisslev 30], may have a split Johrzeit, but again can only one time have Kedimoh over other Availim.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 15 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.