December 9, 2012 12:34 am at 12:34 am #912484
ZD, you keep on repeating how bad the aveira is, but nobody’s disagreed with you about that. No matter how destructive and evil such behavior is, it doesn’t prove the guilt of a particular individual.December 9, 2012 12:53 am at 12:53 am #912485
chalilavchas -you trust Horowitz, but it is commanded to trust Hashem only. You are not a baby- go by Torah!
Yitayningwut- Another thought- using the Choshen Mispat siman 2, nowadays, there would probably be only three standing in the world left. Many in CR would be the first in the line-up to be judged.December 9, 2012 1:22 am at 1:22 am #912486
So basically since we will almost never catch an abuser on video and since they are usually smart enough to cover their tracks well we should never believe the accuser and always assume they are making up a story right?
Listen, in this case although there is no proof, there’s certainly smoke and quite a bit of it at that and when there’s smoke there’s usually fire. There’s way too much in his modus operandi that makes no sense. Btw did you ever hear of a therapist that went on a private 14 hour trip with their client?! Especially with an underage girl?!December 9, 2012 2:28 am at 2:28 am #912487
WIY – DO NOT PREJUDGE.
In many instances two valid witnesses are required as proof in a din Torah. One can go without two valid witnesses if one does not have them and see what the dayonim say – each case is slightly different.December 9, 2012 2:39 am at 2:39 am #912488
WIY, As I stated previously, I don’t know anything about this case. I therefore make no judgement either way. ZD also did not claim any knowledge of this case, and therefore I question his prejudging.
The threshold for bringing the authorities in is “raglayim l’davar”. This is determined by a posek based on halachically accepted means, but certainly does not require video evidence.December 9, 2012 4:00 am at 4:00 am #912489
This is a moderated forum and you only see the posts that go through, although I have tried to limit what I say because I know the rules.
If this was not a moderated forum, I would certainly post more information why i feel a certain way.
Usually when a defendent is on trial they do not take the stand for fear of incriminating themselves of the crime or other crimes. The defendent in this case should have taken this advice. Read the newspapers even if you think they are biased, They have retold his time on the stand fairly accurate.December 9, 2012 6:18 am at 6:18 am #912490
He is innocent. Therefore he took the stand. The guilty are afraid to testify in their own defense.December 9, 2012 6:52 am at 6:52 am #912491
First he judges then he uses the secular press to smear more -and still no din Torah- a disgrace!December 9, 2012 7:31 am at 7:31 am #912492
No his going on the stand does not prove innocence just arrogance. You obviously didn’t read up on what was revealed during his testimony. He definitely is no model citizen….December 9, 2012 8:26 am at 8:26 am #912493
He is innocent. Therefore he took the stand. The guilty are afraid to testify in their own defense.
Those are gross generalizations, if I ever heard any. Really gross.
Please let us know when you will be signing up relatives and friends daughters to take 14 hour trips with him to the mountains and have hours long sessions with him behind doors that are locked with three locks. He, who by the way was quoted as saying that Hilchos Yichud are man-made. Hilchos Tznius- heavy tights are of greater importance….
How many girls will you be signing up? You have a daughter who might need help? Hes the greatest……December 9, 2012 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #912494
ZD, I’m confused. Previously, you stated that you didn’t know the case. Now, you say you feel the media reports are fairly accurate. How would you be in a position to know that?
Iced, that’s ludicrous. Should any defendant who takes the stand automatically be exonorated?December 9, 2012 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm #912495
There was a thread recently about opposite gender therapists. Many people were saying it was assur, And now suddenly its permitted?
Except in a yerusha case, then I guess its permittedDecember 9, 2012 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #912496Matan1Participant
Why on earth would an 18 year old girl willingly put herself through this torture to convict him if he is innocent. what does she have to gain? Only slurs and hurtful remarks.December 9, 2012 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #912497
Can my comment be approved?December 9, 2012 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #912498
I only know the case from the Media reports. I dont have any inside information.
I belive her story more than his story, Too many holes in his story and what he has said on the stand did not convince me he was a victims of an angry teenDecember 9, 2012 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #912499
If you were willing to be honest with yourself you would acknowledge that you just have a unhealthy and unfounded proclivity to assume that chasidic men are wrong.
As is obvious from 98% of your comments.
I wonder if you will being honest with yourself any easier than being honest with others.December 9, 2012 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #912501
If YOU were willing to be honest with YOURSELF youd ask yourself and others why he took a young pretty girl on a 14 hour trip all alone. If he had good intentions and the desire to keep Hilchos Yichud, hed have taken someone along for the ride.
nishtdayngesheft, proclivity … shmoclivity.December 9, 2012 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #912502
I honestly know I would not take a 14 year old girl who is not my offspring anywhere.December 9, 2012 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #912503farrocksMember
There is zero evidence against him for what he stands accused of other than her word. It is a typical “he-said/she-said” situation, and we cannot accept a conviction based on a he-said/she-said situation with zero real actual evidence.December 9, 2012 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #912504
nishtdayngesheft, I believe I read that Pearl Engelman, the Chassidishe mother of another abuse victim said she has firsthand knowledge of other victims of his, but they dont want to come forward. Is she lieing too?December 9, 2012 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #912505
I said I don’t know the case and I’m not following it. And I am not making statements as to who did what. Contrary to what you may have claimed before.
I am saying that people making claims about the case when All they know is what they read in media in luring tho blog and others leaves no one with enough information to make an honest assessment. However it it is easier to make an assessment based on existing biases.
I would say less than 1% of what is written in the NYT, NYP or NYDN is true. And what is written on the blogs you seem to be following are even less so. And my guess at percentages is based on instances where I actually witnessed things that were totally misrepresented in those media. Of where I have corresponded with the writers and caught them in numerous blatant lies.
Which is as easy to with them as many of the comments here.December 10, 2012 2:55 am at 2:55 am #912506
So in order to get a conviction thats fair in your eyes, and prevent an accused individual from walking, you think we need Hashem to come down and say guilty?
Hashem has never done that before, that I know of.
The best of “proof” and the best of witnesses can be totally false.December 10, 2012 3:15 am at 3:15 am #912507
A fair conviction can only come from a duly constituted Bais Din organized under Halacha utilizing Torah Law and standards of evidence.December 10, 2012 3:31 am at 3:31 am #912508
A fair conviction can only come from a duly constituted Bais Din organized under Halacha utilizing Torah Law and standards of evidence.
So, on a practical level, since there is no such court, what do you propose we do with thieves, rapists, child molesters and murderers today?
Or is it your contention that all Jews should be free from all criminal prosecution?
The WolfDecember 10, 2012 3:39 am at 3:39 am #912509
Wolf. you said-
You are not correct, because there IS such a court.December 10, 2012 3:44 am at 3:44 am #912510
…Or is it your contention that all Jews should be free from all criminal prosecution?
Love it!December 10, 2012 3:45 am at 3:45 am #912511
A Bais Din is capable of convening and ruling on the matter on hand (under discussion) today and imposing the halachicly prescribed penalties if guilty.December 10, 2012 3:45 am at 3:45 am #912512
The defends have not answered about the 15 Hour road trip upstate
This was admitted by the defendant on the Witness stand so its not a “Tablod Lie”
What possible Halacha allows a road trip with an unmarried girl above the age of 12?December 10, 2012 3:48 am at 3:48 am #912513
Is that what I said? Can you show me where I said that?
I said there is no way you can make any sort of honest judgment by what you have read in the media or on blogs.
How you stretched that comment to what you allege is beyond my comprehension.
And it is somewhat troubling how you believe you can make any objective judgment if you are given to such convoluted leaps in this case.December 10, 2012 4:11 am at 4:11 am #912514
What halacha forbids it? Can you make one up?
Perhaps if it were at night. But I have no idea when this was. Nor do I believe anything listed in the media. And as as for what you’re saying, well you’re writing on a blog, and I made clear how much I believe that medium. And I am pretty certain I can accurately guess which other blogs you peruse for your sources.December 10, 2012 4:14 am at 4:14 am #912515
zd: His wife went on the trip with the girl. This fact was never even disputed by the prosecution.December 10, 2012 4:14 am at 4:14 am #912516
A Bais Din is capable of convening and ruling on the matter on hand (under discussion) today and imposing the halachicly prescribed penalties if guilty.
Yeah? You really think there is a Bais Din that is authorized to administer the death penalty or even malkus today?
Please, tell me who are the semuchim who would form this Bais Din?
The WolfDecember 10, 2012 4:16 am at 4:16 am #912517
Do not prejudice- you are not a dayan, and if you were you would be out of order speaking here.
Anyone prejudicing really has to have a good look at themselves.
In the days of horses and carts, people took hours to get from A to B. What do you know – nothing.December 10, 2012 6:15 am at 6:15 am #912518yehudayonaParticipant
iced, there are many cases of defendants taking the stand in which it was their own testimony that convinced the jury of their guilt. I sat on such a jury once.
I know nothing about this case other than what I read here. It seems to me that unless you’re privy to all the testimony that the jury hears, you’re in no position to judge. Reading about it in the paper is not the same as being in the courtroom. I totally agree with nishtdayngesheft about the accuracy of the media.December 10, 2012 7:15 am at 7:15 am #912519
You happen to be right there are those that state that a “road trip” with an unmarried girl above the age of 12 is assur becuase of Yichud.
Therefore they contend that it is prohibited for Boys and girls to go out on dates.December 10, 2012 7:30 am at 7:30 am #912520
In cases of abuse I wonder if anyone here has read up about the “pre-school” cases of the 80’s where in a whole bunch of cases men (and in some instances women) were convicted of child abuse.
In all these cases eventually it was proven that the accused were innocent, in many cases they had already benn sitting in Jail for years.
In fact the near total exoneration of virtually all the accussed and the open demonstration of numerous cases where children did not say the actual truth plaid a real role in the child abuse accusation being laid to rest for a lon. long time.
Look the cases up some of them are pretty famous.
As for Halacha.
There is something called “kula d’loh posuk” in such cases Beis Din has the ability to require that a “suspect” no longer deal with a specific women or children ect… as a precaution even though they may not punish since they do not have enough evidence to warrant a punishment.December 10, 2012 7:39 am at 7:39 am #912521
Just to clarify.
I purposley dis not use the term “lie” in talking about accusotory children.
There is aconsiderable evidence to the fact that children below a certain age do not lie about things in the way adults understand lie rather their perception of reality is different then an adults and hence when they say over a story in many instances they do not think they are lieing in the conventional sense.
I don’t think this is news to any parent of small children.
This is one reason why it’s quite disingenous when “experts” qoute studies showing “children don’t lie”.
Yes they do not lie in many cases, however they are not telling the truth as we understand it to be.
Again most parents of small children understand what I am saying as it’s pretty much self understood.
But then again most of the “experts” that are the originators of most of these “studies” had very few children of their own and even if they did they spent very little time with them to know many of the things that many Jewish Parents who grew up in families with numerous siblings, cousins ect.. take for granted.
So they had to spend millions of dollars and make numerous mistakes trying to find out a little bit of what we know.
Sort of like President Barack Obama telling a buisnessman how to turn a profit, with equal results.December 10, 2012 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #912522
In Chassidic communmities there is a Beshow unmarried people never go on a date.December 10, 2012 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #912523
Wolf: Even if the allegations in this case had been true, it is not a capital case. The penalty prescribed by halacha for this is within the jurisdiction and competence of a contemporary Bais Din.December 10, 2012 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #912524
And what punishment does contemporary Beis Din implment for such an offense other than montary compensation.
This is not a capital case, If convicted he is going to Jail. Beis Din cannot implement Jail sentencesDecember 10, 2012 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #912525
Wolf: Even if the allegations in this case had been true, it is not a capital case. The penalty prescribed by halacha for this is within the jurisdiction and competence of a contemporary Bais Din.
Is it? Are you talking about the k’nas of a na’arah (since she was 12 when this started)?
That’s a k’nas… which, again, you need s’muchim.
Are you saying that it’s strictly a monetary case with only civil penalties involved?
If so, then I ask you — is monetary punishment the only acceptable punishment for thieves, gangsters, arsonists, child molesters and rapists (as long as they don’t kill anyone)? If not, then what would you do with these people?
The WolfDecember 10, 2012 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #912526a maminParticipant
I find it amusing unfortunately, how all of you seem to know the true facts first hand! Tell me do any of you know the accuser firsthand? Do you know her husband as well?? There is so little coverage of who and what she is! This whole case is a terrible chillul Hashem! I am NOT SWEEPING things under the carpet, BUT you need to know who she is and what shes done with her life!! Not because she’s been abused BUT because of choices that she has made !December 10, 2012 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #912527
Wolf: She has made no allegation of their being any actual maisa.December 10, 2012 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #912528
Wolf: She has made no allegation of their being any actual maisa.
I’m not referring to this case, specifically.
A fair conviction can only come from a duly constituted Bais Din organized under Halacha utilizing Torah Law and standards of evidence.
I can only assume that you meant this universally and not just for this case. (If I’m wrong in this assumption, please tell me).
If so, again, I ask, what do you propose that we do, on a practical level, with child molesters, rapists, arsonists and thieves in our community? If they cannot be prosecuted by the DA (since there can be no “fair conviction” under your definition) and there is no Beis Din that can prosecute them (unless you feel that these cases are strictly civil matters), then what do you propose we do with them?
The WolfDecember 10, 2012 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #912529
I find it amusing unfortunately, how all of you seem to know the true facts first hand! Tell me do any of you know the accuser firsthand? Do you know her husband as well?? There is so little coverage of who and what she is! This whole case is a terrible chillul Hashem! I am NOT SWEEPING things under the carpet, BUT you need to know who she is and what shes done with her life!! Not because she’s been abused BUT because of choices that she has made !
Does it matter?
If what you are implying about her is true, so what? Does that mean she deserves abuse? Or is not entitled to justice if abused?
Justice in this case needs to be based on evidence and testimony (or lack of same). Who and what she may have otherwise done is really beside the point.
The WolfDecember 10, 2012 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #912530
It is not an averirah to not want to follow the laws of Satmar.December 10, 2012 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #912531
He has been found GUILTY of all Charges..December 10, 2012 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #912532
As said, false guilty verdict.December 10, 2012 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #912533
On what bases do you have that info?
The evidence was provided , ample oportunity was given to refute the evidence and a jury of 6 men and 6 women convicted based on the evidence provided.
He might have even admitted to another crime on the stand (embezzlement) Non-Profits have monetary rules that have to be followed to keep that statusDecember 10, 2012 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #912534fedex11204Member
I am ecstatic about this verdict ..I must say let that rotten person rot in prison
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