Yedid Nefesh questions

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Yedid Nefesh questions

Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 25 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #612261
    YehudahTzvi
    Participant

    Hello, all. My family is makpid on singing zemiros for seudas shlishis. I have a question about Yedid Nefesh. I am a BT and say “tisalaim.” I notice that every bentcher I have says “tisalam.”

    I don’t know why I say it the way I do… which mingag/mesorah is “tisalaim” or am I just pronouncing it wrong? A Rav was over for seudas shlishis last week and I heard him say tisalaim. I didn’t have a chance to ask him about it.

    Lastly, he also says mehaira in it, which I don’t say. Can someone shed some light on the different minhagim? Thanks.

    #1104792
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I highly doubt it’s a matter of minhag. It’s more likely a matter of proper dikduk.

    The Wolf

    #1104793
    SaysMe
    Member

    i say tisalaim and meheira. I know different bentchers have it different. Theres another shabbos zemer with different wording in different bentchers (though which eludes me at this hour)

    #1104794
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    I used to say tisaleim because that was how I heard my father sing it. Then I heard my Rav say tisalum. I looked in a bentcher and saw that it said tisalum. Every siddur/bentcher I’ve checked since says tisalum. So now I say tisalum. I actually showed one of my brothers that, and he was surprised to see it.

    I usually say meheirah also.

    If you want to see an interesting nussach for Yedid nefesh, look in the Koren siddur. R’ Sacks saw an original manuscript from the author of Yedid Nefesh that had different words. He put those words into the siddur.

    #1104795
    golfer
    Participant

    Is it a matter of dikduk, Wolf?

    If so, then there should be a clear correct answer.

    What do you say before Vidui on Yom Kippur- “al tis’aleim mit’chinaseinu,” or “al tis’alam …” ??

    I’ve seen both in different machzorim.

    Is it possible it is a matter of interpretation or minhag?

    (I’ve been told to say “morid ha’geshem” but I have heard “ha’gashem” with a kamatz, and I’ve seen it in siddurim.)

    #1104796
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Geshem and Gashem just depends on if you consider that spot a break or not. This seems to have only one possible correct answer. The word is obviously an Hispoal. The question is only how to pronounce Hispoal of Ne’elam. I would think Tis’aleim is correct, following Tikalem and some others. I won’t be insulted if you don’t listen to me — I wouldn’t either.

    #1104797
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Is it possible it is a matter of interpretation or minhag?

    Yes, it is possible. Hence my wording:

    It’s more likely a matter of proper dikduk.

    That’s my opinion. Don’t like it? Fine, so we disagree.

    (I’ve been told to say “morid ha’geshem” but I have heard “ha’gashem” with a kamatz, and I’ve seen it in siddurim.)

    That one’s actually pretty easy. Is “gashem/geshem” the end of the sentence or not? If it is, then say “gashem,” otherwise, say “geshem.”

    My own practice is to view it as one long sentence “[He] causes the wind to blow, the rain to fall, sustains the living with kindness….” and so I say “geshem.” If you don’t view it that way, then say “gashem.”

    The Wolf

    #1104798
    golfer
    Participant

    Thank you, HaL & Wolf!!

    #1104799
    YehudahTzvi
    Participant

    DaMoshe, would you have a copy? I would love to see the original wording.

    #1104800
    on the ball
    Participant

    In the Pasuk in Koheles it says ‘Umibsorcha Al Tisalom’

    I think Shlomo Hamelech probably knew dikduk.

    #1104801
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    YehuDahTzvi, I do have a copy of the Koren siddur, but I can’t copy and paste the text here, sorry. If I have a chance one day, I can try to transliterate it.

    If you look at the Wikipedia page on Yedid Nefesh, it does list some of the differences.

    #1104802
    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Yishaya 58:7 “umibb’sar’cha lo sis’allom”.

    Similar thing:

    In the beginning of kaddish some use the Hebrew pronunciation of “yisgadeil v’yiskadeish” while others say the Aramaic pronunciation of “yisgadal v’yiskadash”.

    #1104803
    oomis
    Participant

    Mod 42 actually said what I was going to post.

    In matters of Torah reading, the nekudos must be accurate, because the entire meaning of a word can change, and the Torah was given directly by Hashem. In matters of davening which are primarily tefilos that were written by people (unless it is something like the Shema, which comes from the Torah), there is a teeny bit more wiggle room for alternate pronunciation of certain vowelizations and all are acceptable.

    #1104804
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Also in Tehillim 55. I’m sure Shlomo Hamelech knew Dikduk, but that doesn’t help us.

    #1104805
    YehudahTzvi
    Participant

    So the question arises… should I change my pronunciation to what is printed in the benchers/siddurs?

    #1104806
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The fact that Tis’alom rhymes with the other endings, which it is obviously meant to do, points to the fact that whoever wrote Yedid Nefesh pronounced it (as we now know, correctly) Tis’alom.

    #1104807
    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Devorim 22:3 “lo suchal l’hisaleim”

    #1104808
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The fact that Tis’alom rhymes with the other endings, which it is obviously meant to do, points to the fact that whoever wrote Yedid Nefesh pronounced it (as we now know, correctly) Tis’alom.

    Perhaps. Perhaps the rhyme was forced (as it is, the rhyme is forced in the terminal line of the first stanza).

    The Wolf

    #1104809
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    42,

    Tehillim 55:2 “V’al tisalam”.

    #1104810
    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Interesting. That is the same phrase as in Yedid Nefesh. But in Tehilim it is not the end of a sentence like in Yedid Nefesh and Devorim. Though Devorim is a different form of the word.

    The rhyming scheme is an interesting “proof” of how it should be read but there are some piyyutim (in slichos I think) where the Artscroll tells us to pronounce it as the correct Hebrew rather than in the form of the poem so this is not necessarily a solid proof.

    #1104811
    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Bump

    #1104812
    pcoz
    Member

    Nekudos were standardised by mass produced siddurim, before that you had variations like lizman hazeh as opposed to lazman hazeh and lephichach anachnu chayavim as opposed to lephichoch anachnu chayavim in Ashkenaz siddurim.

    #1104813
    yfr
    Member

    on the koren siddur, yedid nefesh is totally different

    for example:

    sifchas olam instead of simchas olam

    #1104814
    fathousewife
    Participant

    Don’t be so makpid chill

    #1104815
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    yfr: Yes, I posted that, in this thread, a year ago.

Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 25 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.