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March 3, 2014 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #612261YehudahTzviParticipant
Hello, all. My family is makpid on singing zemiros for seudas shlishis. I have a question about Yedid Nefesh. I am a BT and say “tisalaim.” I notice that every bentcher I have says “tisalam.”
I don’t know why I say it the way I do… which mingag/mesorah is “tisalaim” or am I just pronouncing it wrong? A Rav was over for seudas shlishis last week and I heard him say tisalaim. I didn’t have a chance to ask him about it.
Lastly, he also says mehaira in it, which I don’t say. Can someone shed some light on the different minhagim? Thanks.
March 4, 2014 1:02 am at 1:02 am #1104792WolfishMusingsParticipantI highly doubt it’s a matter of minhag. It’s more likely a matter of proper dikduk.
The Wolf
March 4, 2014 5:20 am at 5:20 am #1104793SaysMeMemberi say tisalaim and meheira. I know different bentchers have it different. Theres another shabbos zemer with different wording in different bentchers (though which eludes me at this hour)
March 4, 2014 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #1104794DaMosheParticipantI used to say tisaleim because that was how I heard my father sing it. Then I heard my Rav say tisalum. I looked in a bentcher and saw that it said tisalum. Every siddur/bentcher I’ve checked since says tisalum. So now I say tisalum. I actually showed one of my brothers that, and he was surprised to see it.
I usually say meheirah also.
If you want to see an interesting nussach for Yedid nefesh, look in the Koren siddur. R’ Sacks saw an original manuscript from the author of Yedid Nefesh that had different words. He put those words into the siddur.
March 4, 2014 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #1104795golferParticipantIs it a matter of dikduk, Wolf?
If so, then there should be a clear correct answer.
What do you say before Vidui on Yom Kippur- “al tis’aleim mit’chinaseinu,” or “al tis’alam …” ??
I’ve seen both in different machzorim.
Is it possible it is a matter of interpretation or minhag?
(I’ve been told to say “morid ha’geshem” but I have heard “ha’gashem” with a kamatz, and I’ve seen it in siddurim.)
March 4, 2014 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #1104796HaLeiViParticipantGeshem and Gashem just depends on if you consider that spot a break or not. This seems to have only one possible correct answer. The word is obviously an Hispoal. The question is only how to pronounce Hispoal of Ne’elam. I would think Tis’aleim is correct, following Tikalem and some others. I won’t be insulted if you don’t listen to me — I wouldn’t either.
March 4, 2014 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #1104797WolfishMusingsParticipantIs it possible it is a matter of interpretation or minhag?
Yes, it is possible. Hence my wording:
It’s more likely a matter of proper dikduk.
That’s my opinion. Don’t like it? Fine, so we disagree.
(I’ve been told to say “morid ha’geshem” but I have heard “ha’gashem” with a kamatz, and I’ve seen it in siddurim.)
That one’s actually pretty easy. Is “gashem/geshem” the end of the sentence or not? If it is, then say “gashem,” otherwise, say “geshem.”
My own practice is to view it as one long sentence “[He] causes the wind to blow, the rain to fall, sustains the living with kindness….” and so I say “geshem.” If you don’t view it that way, then say “gashem.”
The Wolf
March 4, 2014 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #1104798golferParticipantThank you, HaL & Wolf!!
March 4, 2014 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #1104799YehudahTzviParticipantDaMoshe, would you have a copy? I would love to see the original wording.
March 5, 2014 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #1104800on the ballParticipantIn the Pasuk in Koheles it says ‘Umibsorcha Al Tisalom’
I think Shlomo Hamelech probably knew dikduk.
March 5, 2014 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #1104801DaMosheParticipantYehuDahTzvi, I do have a copy of the Koren siddur, but I can’t copy and paste the text here, sorry. If I have a chance one day, I can try to transliterate it.
If you look at the Wikipedia page on Yedid Nefesh, it does list some of the differences.
March 6, 2014 7:16 am at 7:16 am #1104802YW Moderator-42ModeratorYishaya 58:7 “umibb’sar’cha lo sis’allom”.
Similar thing:
In the beginning of kaddish some use the Hebrew pronunciation of “yisgadeil v’yiskadeish” while others say the Aramaic pronunciation of “yisgadal v’yiskadash”.
March 6, 2014 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #1104803oomisParticipantMod 42 actually said what I was going to post.
In matters of Torah reading, the nekudos must be accurate, because the entire meaning of a word can change, and the Torah was given directly by Hashem. In matters of davening which are primarily tefilos that were written by people (unless it is something like the Shema, which comes from the Torah), there is a teeny bit more wiggle room for alternate pronunciation of certain vowelizations and all are acceptable.
March 6, 2014 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #1104804HaLeiViParticipantAlso in Tehillim 55. I’m sure Shlomo Hamelech knew Dikduk, but that doesn’t help us.
March 6, 2014 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #1104805YehudahTzviParticipantSo the question arises… should I change my pronunciation to what is printed in the benchers/siddurs?
March 6, 2014 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #1104806HaLeiViParticipantThe fact that Tis’alom rhymes with the other endings, which it is obviously meant to do, points to the fact that whoever wrote Yedid Nefesh pronounced it (as we now know, correctly) Tis’alom.
March 7, 2014 12:51 am at 12:51 am #1104807YW Moderator-42ModeratorDevorim 22:3 “lo suchal l’hisaleim”
March 7, 2014 1:09 am at 1:09 am #1104808WolfishMusingsParticipantThe fact that Tis’alom rhymes with the other endings, which it is obviously meant to do, points to the fact that whoever wrote Yedid Nefesh pronounced it (as we now know, correctly) Tis’alom.
Perhaps. Perhaps the rhyme was forced (as it is, the rhyme is forced in the terminal line of the first stanza).
The Wolf
March 7, 2014 1:32 am at 1:32 am #1104809☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant42,
Tehillim 55:2 “V’al tisalam”.
March 7, 2014 2:02 am at 2:02 am #1104810YW Moderator-42ModeratorInteresting. That is the same phrase as in Yedid Nefesh. But in Tehilim it is not the end of a sentence like in Yedid Nefesh and Devorim. Though Devorim is a different form of the word.
The rhyming scheme is an interesting “proof” of how it should be read but there are some piyyutim (in slichos I think) where the Artscroll tells us to pronounce it as the correct Hebrew rather than in the form of the poem so this is not necessarily a solid proof.
October 8, 2015 7:35 am at 7:35 am #1104811YW Moderator-42ModeratorBump
October 9, 2015 12:12 am at 12:12 am #1104812pcozMemberNekudos were standardised by mass produced siddurim, before that you had variations like lizman hazeh as opposed to lazman hazeh and lephichach anachnu chayavim as opposed to lephichoch anachnu chayavim in Ashkenaz siddurim.
October 11, 2015 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #1104813yfrMemberon the koren siddur, yedid nefesh is totally different
for example:
sifchas olam instead of simchas olam
October 12, 2015 10:34 am at 10:34 am #1104814fathousewifeParticipantDon’t be so makpid chill
October 12, 2015 11:52 am at 11:52 am #1104815DaMosheParticipantyfr: Yes, I posted that, in this thread, a year ago.
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