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Hello, all. My family is makpid on singing zemiros for seudas shlishis. I have a question about Yedid Nefesh. I am a BT and say “tisalaim.” I notice that every bentcher I have says “tisalam.”
I don’t know why I say it the way I do… which mingag/mesorah is “tisalaim” or am I just pronouncing it wrong? A Rav was over for seudas shlishis last week and I heard him say tisalaim. I didn’t have a chance to ask him about it.
Lastly, he also says mehaira in it, which I don’t say. Can someone shed some light on the different minhagim? Thanks.
I highly doubt it’s a matter of minhag. It’s more likely a matter of proper dikduk.
The Wolf
i say tisalaim and meheira. I know different bentchers have it different. Theres another shabbos zemer with different wording in different bentchers (though which eludes me at this hour)
I used to say tisaleim because that was how I heard my father sing it. Then I heard my Rav say tisalum. I looked in a bentcher and saw that it said tisalum. Every siddur/bentcher I’ve checked since says tisalum. So now I say tisalum. I actually showed one of my brothers that, and he was surprised to see it.
I usually say meheirah also.
If you want to see an interesting nussach for Yedid nefesh, look in the Koren siddur. R’ Sacks saw an original manuscript from the author of Yedid Nefesh that had different words. He put those words into the siddur.
Is it a matter of dikduk, Wolf?
If so, then there should be a clear correct answer.
What do you say before Vidui on Yom Kippur- “al tis’aleim mit’chinaseinu,” or “al tis’alam …” ??
I’ve seen both in different machzorim.
Is it possible it is a matter of interpretation or minhag?
(I’ve been told to say “morid ha’geshem” but I have heard “ha’gashem” with a kamatz, and I’ve seen it in siddurim.)
Geshem and Gashem just depends on if you consider that spot a break or not. This seems to have only one possible correct answer. The word is obviously an Hispoal. The question is only how to pronounce Hispoal of Ne’elam. I would think Tis’aleim is correct, following Tikalem and some others. I won’t be insulted if you don’t listen to me — I wouldn’t either.
Is it possible it is a matter of interpretation or minhag?
Yes, it is possible. Hence my wording:
It’s more likely a matter of proper dikduk.
That’s my opinion. Don’t like it? Fine, so we disagree.
(I’ve been told to say “morid ha’geshem” but I have heard “ha’gashem” with a kamatz, and I’ve seen it in siddurim.)
That one’s actually pretty easy. Is “gashem/geshem” the end of the sentence or not? If it is, then say “gashem,” otherwise, say “geshem.”
My own practice is to view it as one long sentence “[He] causes the wind to blow, the rain to fall, sustains the living with kindness….” and so I say “geshem.” If you don’t view it that way, then say “gashem.”
The Wolf
Thank you, HaL & Wolf!!
In the Pasuk in Koheles it says ‘Umibsorcha Al Tisalom’
I think Shlomo Hamelech probably knew dikduk.
YehuDahTzvi, I do have a copy of the Koren siddur, but I can’t copy and paste the text here, sorry. If I have a chance one day, I can try to transliterate it.
If you look at the Wikipedia page on Yedid Nefesh, it does list some of the differences.
Yishaya 58:7 “umibb’sar’cha lo sis’allom”.
Similar thing:
In the beginning of kaddish some use the Hebrew pronunciation of “yisgadeil v’yiskadeish” while others say the Aramaic pronunciation of “yisgadal v’yiskadash”.
Mod 42 actually said what I was going to post.
In matters of Torah reading, the nekudos must be accurate, because the entire meaning of a word can change, and the Torah was given directly by Hashem. In matters of davening which are primarily tefilos that were written by people (unless it is something like the Shema, which comes from the Torah), there is a teeny bit more wiggle room for alternate pronunciation of certain vowelizations and all are acceptable.
Also in Tehillim 55. I’m sure Shlomo Hamelech knew Dikduk, but that doesn’t help us.
The fact that Tis’alom rhymes with the other endings, which it is obviously meant to do, points to the fact that whoever wrote Yedid Nefesh pronounced it (as we now know, correctly) Tis’alom.
Devorim 22:3 “lo suchal l’hisaleim”
The fact that Tis’alom rhymes with the other endings, which it is obviously meant to do, points to the fact that whoever wrote Yedid Nefesh pronounced it (as we now know, correctly) Tis’alom.
Perhaps. Perhaps the rhyme was forced (as it is, the rhyme is forced in the terminal line of the first stanza).
The Wolf
42,
Tehillim 55:2 “V’al tisalam”.
Interesting. That is the same phrase as in Yedid Nefesh. But in Tehilim it is not the end of a sentence like in Yedid Nefesh and Devorim. Though Devorim is a different form of the word.
The rhyming scheme is an interesting “proof” of how it should be read but there are some piyyutim (in slichos I think) where the Artscroll tells us to pronounce it as the correct Hebrew rather than in the form of the poem so this is not necessarily a solid proof.
Bump
Nekudos were standardised by mass produced siddurim, before that you had variations like lizman hazeh as opposed to lazman hazeh and lephichach anachnu chayavim as opposed to lephichoch anachnu chayavim in Ashkenaz siddurim.
on the koren siddur, yedid nefesh is totally different
for example:
sifchas olam instead of simchas olam
Don’t be so makpid chill
yfr: Yes, I posted that, in this thread, a year ago.
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