Home › Forums › Bais Medrash › Yehoshua not having children
- This topic has 11 replies, 6 voices, and was last updated 9 years, 9 months ago by rabbiofberlin.
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June 2, 2014 3:08 am at 3:08 am #612926Patur Aval AssurParticipant
The Gemara in Eruvin 63a-63b brings different opinions as to which sin caused Yehoshua to not have children. The Gemara in Berachos 5b says that children dying is not yisurin shel ahava (i.e. it’s a punishment). The Gemara asks that R’ Yochanan’s childredn died. Rashi explains that a tzadik like R’ Yochanan obviously wasn’t getting punished for a sin so it must have been Yisurin shel ahava. The Gemara then concludes that having children die is yisurin shel ahava, but not having children at all is not yisurin shel ahava (i.e. it’s a punishment. Tosafos asks a kashya on Rashi’s pshat in the previous step that we find many tzadikim who didn’t have children which according to Rashi’s logic should prove that it was yisurin shel ahava because obviously tzadikim didn’t commit a sin worthy of this punishment. The Bach inserts into Tosafos that we find that Yehoshua did not have children. But that would have nothing to do with Tosafos’s question because we already know that Yehoshua’s lack of children was indeed a punishment for a specific sin and not yisurin shel ahava!
June 2, 2014 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm #1061785Sam2ParticipantDoesn’t the Gemara say he had daughters?
June 2, 2014 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #1061786Patur Aval AssurParticipantBut that’s not relevant because Tosafos’s next step is addressing daughters whereas the Bach brings in Yehoshua in the step that’s talking about sons.
June 6, 2014 5:24 am at 5:24 am #1061787Patur Aval AssurParticipantI was thinking that maybe Yehoshua could be a seperate kashya on Rashi because Rashi’s whole premise is that a gavra rabba like R’ Yochanan’s kids dying would have to be yissurin shel ahava yet we see that a(n even greater) gavra rabba like Yehoshua’s not having kids was not yissurin shel ahava, but it doesn’t fit so well into the wording of Tosafos.
June 6, 2014 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #1061788TheGoqParticipantI really appreciate all the lamdus and erudition of some of the posters here including you PAA but alas i am not that lamdish or erudite can you translate yisurin shel ahava for me thank you.
June 6, 2014 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #1061789Patur Aval AssurParticipantliterally “pain of love” referring to G-d inflicting suffering on someone not as a punishment for a wrongdoing, but as a means to get more reward (according to most opinions).
November 4, 2014 4:55 am at 4:55 am #1061790Patur Aval AssurParticipantLichora the Bach was bothered by Tosafos’s saying …??? ???? ????, because the same way that there were tzadikim who didn’t have sons, there were tzadikim who didn’t have daughters which is not something that Tosafos can deny,in which case Tosafos is not making too much sense. Therefore there must have been some missing words, so the Bach brought in Yehoshua. It’s just that if my suggestion from five months ago is correct then he should have said “And so too, Yehoshua had no sons as a punishment ” And also, my suggestion doesn’t really help because even if Yehoshua had daughters, his lack of sons was still not yissurin shel ahavah. Also, there’s a much more basic Kashya on
Rashi – Tzadikim do aveiros and get punished for them.
February 26, 2015 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #1061791Patur Aval AssurParticipantThe Tzlach explains that Tosafos is not talking about Yehoshua, and he gives a whole pshat:
???’ ?”? ????? ??? ????? ???’ ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???’ ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???’ ??? ???? ???? ???’ ???”? ???? ????? ????’ ?? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ????’ ???? ??? ?????? ???’ ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???”? ????? ????’ ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????’ ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?”? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???”? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???”? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???”? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???’ ??? ???? ?? ???? ?”? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??”? ?? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ??????”? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???’ ?????? ???’ ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???”?
But I don’t think his pshat fits so well with Tosafos saying that R’ Yochanan had daughters.
February 27, 2015 3:18 am at 3:18 am #1061792147ParticipantWhen we get to Nisson 26th on Yehoshua’s Johrzeit, since there are no sons [be it daughters or no children] who is taking care of Kaddish recital?
February 27, 2015 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #1061793rabbiofberlinParticipant147- if there are daughters, you have two choices: grandchildren or -if you follow many acharonim- the daughters themselves can say kaddish.
February 27, 2015 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #1061794oomisParticipantThere are those who mattir girls saying Kaddish in a tzniusdig manner, quietly. Or one who already has had to say kaddish on his own parents’ yartzeits can voluntarily say kaddish for others, as well.
February 27, 2015 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #1061795rabbiofberlinParticipantoomis:there are plenty of sources for women to say kaddish and not only quietly.
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