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Bochurim should be banned from usage from any sort of mobile phone, to ensure that the red line gets set earlier on to avoid what is unfortunately taking place amongst teenagers whom are getting addicted and caught up with all sorts of internet issues…
Your absolutely right but unfortunately today’s generation of children and teen’s demands on their parents are so high with also a lack of respect from making these demands on their own loving parents BUT
if we as their parents don’t give in to their demands and give each child the proper TLC time they each need one on one, then C”V they can start heading downward OTD and parents feel this has to be prevented at all prices even if it means a) giving in to their children’s demands b) buying them an expensive and tumah unkosher smartphone c) together with a car they can take anywhere with anyone C”V and many other examples and situations that today’s parent’s are giving to their frum orthodox Torah children that just ladt generation would never do such a thing to put our children’s yiddishkeit at risk.May we all wake up and make sure we as parents are making the best and correct decisions and when needed ask your LOR what the correct way to go is in this situation cause each child is a personal and different situation then another child.
It’s hard to make such a blanket statement. It depends on the bochur, his needs, his environment, etc.
Sometimes, being so stringent can backfire. If all his friends are in constant contact with each other, but he is cut out from it by force, it can lead him to acquiring devices behind his parents back.
I personally know a young bochur in an out-of-town yeshiva who is the only one in his class whose parents don’t let him have a cellphone. This is asking for disaster.
All the bochurim in his class have flip phones that are fully kosher, and they must give it in to the dorm counselor for most of the week (they get it back for Erev Shabbos).
But this bochur bought a smartphone behind his parents back, and it’s completely unfiltered (r”l), and he uses it throughout the week without reporting it to the dorm counselor. Hanhola thinks that he’s always absent because he likes sleeping in, and his parents still think that he’s the safest bochur in his class from the internet.
Often the parents corrupt enough. A curious enough kid will go to the library.
Menachem: Why haven’t you let his parents know what he has?
In addition to the above, trolls should be banned from the internet
If you don’t ship the kid to an institution and also show him a good example, many teenagers would be capable to use a phone and a computer responsibly in home setting. Some posters here are _poster_ children for this statement.
Q. “Menachem: Why haven’t you let his parents know what he has?”
A. In alphabetical order from thesaurus.com.
betrayer
blabbermouth
canary
double-crosser
fink
informant
narc
nark
rat
sneak
snitcher
source
squealer
stoolie
tattler
tattletale
tipster
turncoat
weasel
whistle-blower
deep throat
stool pigeonGHadorah: Would you have the same response if it was a Glock 19 or cocaine that the the kid had?
really, GH? I’m surprised at you. You wouldn’t reach out for help for someone who is involved in unhealthy behaviors to the point of it affecting their daily function? I’m surprised. Is it because you don’t like their view of unfiltered phone use? I hope not because personal bias shouldn’t be enough of a reason to let a kid fall.
UJM/Syag: With respect, I would 110% support intervention with the parents or others in a life/death matter. We obviously have very different views of the threat (physical or spiritual) posed by a bochur who decides to have a smartphone but I certainly don’t conflate it with a drug dependency.
maybe try reading the post again with your guard down instead of up. If that doesn’t work I guess I can break it down for you.
I would ask a _competent_ Rav whether to inform the parents.
On one hand, parents have a reasonable approach and pursue the best for their kid.
On the other hand, they are failing and it is not clear that doubling-down will help. For example, if kids break through filters on a computer and parents discover it: if they close the break or confront the kid, he will find another way and parents will never know about it. It may be a better idea to monitor the break and see whether this is benign or not. So, in this case, maybe a Rav and friends can help the kid using some other approach instead of encouraging parents to follow the path that is failing. For example, maybe the kid has questions that need to be answered, or he needs more warmth and understanding.
Banning a kosher phone,so as not to blur the line between that and a smart phone sounds like “don’t touch the eitz hadas since you might come to eat from it”
See Genesis how well that worked out.In reply to the different opinions regarding informing the parents, the statement which I began with still stands:
“It’s hard to make such a blanket statement. It depends on the bochur, his needs, his environment, etc.”
Sometimes, (very often) it’s okay to “snitch”. The question we must always ask before informing on someone is: “Am I doing this in order to help/save/protect that person/others, or just because I enjoy being a snitch and getting the guy in trouble?”
Often, if a someone confided his trust in you, it was because he assumed that you wouldn’t tell others. If you break that trust, even if you’re only doing it for his benifit, it will backfire and from now on he will keep all of his struggles to himself, which is the worst.
However, I do believe that this can often quite comparable to drug usage or the like. [%30-%40 percent of internet usage is for terrible addictions that do great emotional (and obviously spiritual) damage.]
But it doesn’t make a difference how bad it is. Even for something like drugs, I would think twice before reporting. Will this help him or make it worse? It all depends on the situation.
“don’t touch the eitz hadas since you might come to eat from it”
B’tayavon
Gadolhadorah,
“UJM/Syag: With respect, I would 110% support intervention with the parents or others in a life/death matter.”
Well, I’m glad you at least support not letting a kid literally die.
”
don’t touch the eitz hadas since you might come to eat from it
B’tayavon”
Explain.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I would ask a _competent_ Rav whether to inform the parents.”
Agreed.
“On the other hand, they are failing and it is not clear that doubling-down will help.”
So if you feel the parents aren’t perfect, it justifies disempowering them? And who then gets the responsibility for the child? The state? The child himself?
“For example, if kids break through filters on a computer and parents discover it: if they close the break or confront the kid, he will find another way and parents will never know about it. It may be a better idea to monitor the break and see whether this is benign or not.”
You think surreptitiously spying on a child’s rule-breaking online activities is a better parenting approach than direct conversation about what’s going on? I can’t say I agree.
“So, in this case, maybe a Rav and friends can help the kid using some other approach instead of encouraging parents to follow the path that is failing. For example, maybe the kid has questions that need to be answered, or he needs more warmth and understanding.”
Perhaps, but it is the role of the parents to make that decision, is it not?
Menachem > “Am I doing this in order to help/save/protect that person/others, or just because I enjoy being a snitch and getting the guy in trouble?”
Indeed. I just asked a shailah about whether to tell another person about something that is happening with his property, and the Rav re-phrased the question – so, what will be achieved by saying that? So, the action is justified by the expected outcomes (to be more precise by probability distribution of expected outcomes).
Avram > So if you feel the parents aren’t perfect, it justifies disempowering them?
has v’sholom. I am trying to analyze expected outcome. If the parents are “one trick ponies” and are continuing using same approach, then you should expect that and evaluate whether your information will do any good for anyone. If parents will use this information to ponder what to do, maybe try something different, maybe go ask someone to help – then, of course, help them in that.
> You think surreptitiously spying on a child’s rule-breaking online activities is a better parenting approach than direct conversation about what’s going on?
Please show me halochos that say that being direct with people is always the right thing to do.
Kids are also people … So, if direct conversation works – gezunte heig. But let’s say the parent tried it 3 times already and the kid just evades it, gets a different VPN, for example (kids don’t read this). Then, yes, let them have their innocent fun and monitor for the signs that something bad is happening. Are you afraid that this violate R Gershom herem on reading letters? Then, just monitor IP addresses or inform the kid electronically as businesses do: “this device (network) is subject to monitoring”.Always_Ask_Questions,
“I am trying to analyze expected outcome. If the parents are “one trick ponies” and are continuing using same approach, then you should expect that and evaluate whether your information will do any good for anyone.”
This is simply a reiteration of the point I questioned. It is presumptuous to assume that an outsider can forecast expected outcomes with any degree of confidence. Good luck forecasting outcomes in one’s own home! It is disrespectful to the parents to declare them “one trick ponies”, and to withhold information because you personally don’t like their rules or how they’re enforced effectively disempowers them and undermines their authority. Of course this is not referring to abusive situations, but a parent locking down or confiscating a computer or phone is not abusive.
This is not to say I advocate for outsiders to just go run and tattle on children for anything they do. I agree with you that a rav should be consulted for how to proceed in this situation. An outside observer may not have all of the facts. One must be careful regarding lashon hara even in a parent/child relationship, and tochacha must be tailored to the individual receiving it, and must be done out of love. But to davka withhold information from parents because you don’t like their stance on electronics and consider them to be unthinking oafs who would just double down on the rules you don’t like is not a valid factor in this decision.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Please show me halochos that say that being direct with people is always the right thing to do.”
Oooh a two-fer of argumentative fallacies in one sentence! This is both a straw man and shifting the burden of proof. Please show me where I said that being direct with people is “always the right thing to do”, and then show me halachos that say if your fellow is sinning, you should just watch and see how it goes for him.
“But let’s say the parent tried it 3 times already and the kid just evades it … [t]hen, yes, let them have their innocent fun and monitor for the signs that something bad is happening.”
Wow, at that point it is certainly not innocent fun, no matter what they’re actually doing online.
“Are you afraid that this violate R Gershom herem on reading letters? Then, just monitor IP addresses or inform the kid electronically as businesses do: “this device (network) is subject to monitoring”. “
Maybe, but on a more simple level, children deserve respect too. Even if you tell a child that their device is subject to monitoring, if they evade a clear rule and nothing happens for a good long while, they will assume they “got away with it” and their activities are not actively monitored. And if they find out 6 months later that you’ve been reading their chats, searches, etc. and never told them, that could humiliate them.
Thank you Avrum for desperately trying to extend the myopic view of our never able to be flexible friend.
I am not the betting type but I bet $1000 bucks that if it wasn’t about internet use AAQ and GH wouldn’t have opened their mouths in the first place.
For those of you with your heads too far deep in the fertilizer to hear anything but an assault against your beloved rights to be free of halachic restrictions let me help you along.
“he’s always absent”
for those of you who can’t see ‘internet filter’ and ‘harm’ in the same sentence and still bother reading the content, please read the above phrase taken DIRECTLY from Menachem’s post.
This, my friends, is called a red flag. When you see this descriptor of a person, be it child or adult, it is called a warning sign. Now for most people, when there is a warning sign, we move in to see if there is danger or if there is help needed or if there is some sort of intervention that we can assist with on ANY level whatso ever.
For those of you who missed it, please stay away from children.
Avrom > halachos that say if your fellow is sinning, you should just watch and see how it goes for him.
fair correction that I generalized your statement too far. On this point, we have a notion that those who should give tochacha should, but those who do not know how to do it properly should abstain. Of course, parents do not have the luxury… I am not saying though to totally abstain, just to consider what are real consequences of the information you provide. Of course, in many cases, it is the right thing to report, I am just suggesting full consideration. Say, parents are abusive – will you still report thing to them?
Avrom > And if they find out 6 months later that you’ve been reading their chats, searches, etc. and never told them, that could humiliate them.
Fair point. In most cases, you don’t have to be that invasive to see if there is a real problem. And you don’t need to tell them in 6 months either. Again, this is not an ideal case, but if there is a kid that needs such supervision, then the parent needs to do what he has to do to keep the kid safe. And at the same time, work on other things to divert his attention to better things in life.
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