August 11, 2008 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #1236600namelessMember
Unfortunately, our generations are descending. Its evident in all aspects of life and in all communities. Tznius is lacking, Ahavas Chinom is lacking, people are lax in business issues, even when dealing with fellow Jews ,and principles have changed for the worst.
But I think the typical example of yeridas hadoros can be seen in the mitzvah of ‘Kabed Es ovicho V’es Imecho’. I’ve spoken to elderly people who were brought up in pre-war Europe and they cannot believe how things have changed. They would speak to their parents in third person, they would stand up for them when they entered a room. Its seems that they were in total awe of them.THEY NEVER DARED GIVING THEM MUSSAR or questioning them in anyway. Raising their voices to them? Unheard OF!
My father once told me how he came home from cheder once crying because the Rebbe had hit. When his father heard that, he smacked him again. Why, ? ‘Because if the Rebbe hit you, you probably deserved it’
Nevertheless, the love they had for them was geniune.
Today we have erhlicher Yeshiva Bochurim who come home with ‘freshly baked’ chumras, impose it on parents, speak disrespectfully, and whe parents criticize them, it doesnt seem to have much affect.
I know its like this all over, some better and some worst. Who’s to blame? Are we spoiling them too much or not enough? Do selfish parents have better children because they dont allow themselves to be taken for granted?
Or is it perhaps the educators who are at fault? Do they not emphasize ‘Kibbud Av’ as they should? Its in the Aseres Hadibros afterall! Isnt that the ultimate reason to expect it be taught and
properly and enforced?
Most importantly, why did it deteriorate to THAT extent in a period of 60 years?December 25, 2019 9:41 am at 9:41 am #1814010catch yourselfParticipant
You said the answer yourself. Parents had genuine love for their children, so they were able to inculcate proper respect in their progeny.
Today’s parents who are so self-absorbed that they can’t even give their kids proper attention, let alone love, should not be surprised to find that their offspring don’t show them the respect the parents feel they deserve. Do today’s parents model respect in the way they act towards their children, spouses, Rebbeim/Rabbonim, and friends? Do today’s parents model respect in the way they act towards their own parents?
You complain that today’s Yeshiva Bochrim are holier-than-thou and disrespectful to their parents, whose rebukes go unheeded. Could it be that the Bochrim are acting the way they learned from their parents? How do the parents react when criticized by others? Do the parents make a point of belittling others? How, for example, do the parents speak about “today’s Rabbonim/Gedolim/Mechanchim?”
Yaakov Avinu waited forty years to rebuke his son because he was wary of the effect it would have. Moshe Rabbeinu learned from him and withheld from criticizing K’lal Yisrael for a similar length of time. How long do today’s parents wait to criticize their children for even the slightest misbehavior? How often do they criticize their children?
There is also the effect of the culture around us, which can not be discounted.
Good parenting does not happen by accident. It takes a lot of patience, time, effort, introspection, planning and deliberation.
It has been noted that the Holocaust erased an entire generation of Torah leadership, and that we are still suffering the effects of this until today. This would explain the rapid deterioration in this area, as in many others.
But of course, blame the Mechanchim. It’s their fault for not teaching and emphasizing Kibud Av va’Eim enough. Well, if your children ever heard you say something like that – even once – there’s your answer. You taught them not to respect those who are supposedly deserving of respect.
The fact is that this, like so many other things, can only be taught in the home. Mechanchim do spend considerable time and effort to teach Kibbud Av va’Eim. However, Mechanchim can support the lessons learned from parental example, but they can not replace such example. They certainly can not overcome a negative example provided by parents.December 25, 2019 11:51 am at 11:51 am #1814045anonymous JewParticipant
I’m amazed as to how people can make sweeping generalizations based upon little real knowledge other than anecdotes.December 25, 2019 11:51 am at 11:51 am #1814047
Speaking in third person to the parents is not a good idea. Honor them, but still be close to them in order that the child should reveal his/her problems. The Torah says Avicha not Aviv in third person. See your father as avicha and your mother as imecha. The Rav Abarbanel says that the way you behave towards your parents, your children will behave towards you thereby you yourself are contributing to your long life. The yeshivas should not take it for granted, but put more emphasis on it.December 25, 2019 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #1814072catch yourselfParticipant
Just for the record, the Torah actually says: איש אמו ואביו תיראו.
Now that you point it out, the change from third person to second person is striking.December 25, 2019 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #1814130
Hashem there is speaking to the group in plural, whereas in Aseres Hadibros, He ia speaking to everyone directly.December 25, 2019 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #1814153
It can be that there is a difference between fear and honor. Fear is from far whereas honor is as mentioned can be from closeness, but be careful about being too close. In Pirkei Avos, we want you to support the talmidei chachomim as part of your family, but you should still respect them and don’t look down on them.December 25, 2019 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #1814167MDGParticipant
By WW2, most Jews in Europe were OTD.
Even then, the world had changed. Pedagogy had to change.
Rudeness should not be tolerated, but too much fear is also not good.December 25, 2019 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #1814244lowerourtuition11210Participant
Im amazed at people responding to a dormant thread as if the OP was sitting and waiting for over 11 years at his computer screen to respond back.December 26, 2019 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #18145181Participant
I think yeridos hadoros is a lazy analysis that gets thrown around. You mean to say that during Haskalah, everyone respected their parents? No one ever respected an abusive parent. They took it because that’s the way it was.December 31, 2019 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #1815705knaidlachParticipant
maybe because today’s parents also changed from what our parents were. so no wonder that our children act towards us different as well.January 5, 2020 2:01 am at 2:01 am #1818973doomsdayParticipant
All the parenting books/classes – even the frum ones – discourage parents from being strict,
punishing disrespect – or punishing, blaming, shaming for anything!
Parents are told if they are strict their children will go OTD. But children from permissive parents
also go OTD. After all, they think Hashem does not punish, no matter what rules they break.
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