Yeshiva High School Graduates versus Public High School Graduates

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  • #1310037

    Joseph
    Participant

    Does the average NYC, Lakewood and Monsey Yeshiva high school graduate meet or exceed the knowledge and abilities in Math and English of the average public high school graduate in NYC, Lakewood and East Ramapo? And, similarly, for social studies and science.

    How does the average Regents marks of Yeshiva high school students in NY compare to the average Regents marks of public high school students in NY? Or other standardized tests administered in yeshivas and pubic schools. Such as SATs, etc. Or standardized college/law school tests taken by Yeshiva graduates compared to the state/national average.

    #1310126

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    I woukld love to see the answers to those questions

    though I would like to point out to some of those tests you will have biased samples.
    For example SAT’s many yeshivas do not allow their talmidim to take SAT’s and others make it difficult (YOu Need the Yeshiva’s help to take it as they are offered on Shabbos unless a dispensation is granted). So for Yeshiva guys in many settigns the only ones who are taking the SAT are thsoe who take it somewhat seriously and have jumped through (minor) hoops to take it. As opposed to public schools where it may be a given that high schools take it.

    #1310202

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Regents are generally given to all high school students, Yeshiva or pubic, in the schools that administer it.

    It is my impression from speaking to people in both Yeshiva and public education that Yeshiva high school graduates are notably on a higher level than public high school graduates in their same city/borough/district in Math and English. And with social studies and science I’ve heard anything from Yeshiva high school graduates are on par with public school graduates abilities to they’re ahead in knowledge.

    And, of course, this entire discussion doesn’t even address the fact that Yeshiva students, in addition to their secular studies also take many advanced courses — literally starting as little children in the very low grades — in Hebrew language, Aramaic (at least entry level), Biblical law, Advanced Talmidical law, Jewish history, Jewish commentaries, etcetera. And virtually all are bilingual with very many trilingual.

    #1310290

    馃憫RebYidd23
    Participant

    You shouldn’t be looking at graduates. You should be comparing all who attended.

    #1310385

    Joseph
    Participant

    I’m fine with that. Compare all who attended. FTR, the public school dropout rate is significantly higher than the Yeshiva dropout rate.

    #1310410

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, many yeshivas in Brooklyn and in Ramapo don’t teach most secular subjects. Many yeshivas, including MO, don’t teach Hebrew language,certainly not conversational.
    There are no trilingual, some barely bilingual. They learn Gemorah all day, if that’s what you call Aramaic instruction.

    Public school kids on Long island do very well academically

    #1310418

    Joseph
    Participant

    I’m referring to mainstream yeshivos that teach secular studies and administer the Regents exams. My strong impression is that yeshiva students, on average, do better on the Regents than public school students in the same city or town as the yeshiva students being compared to.

    Biblical Hebrew is a language. Virtually all the Yeshiva students understand to one degree or another both Hebrew and English. And a large plurality are trilingual in understanding Yiddish as well.

    Advanced Talmudical studies is akin to learning law. It greatly enhances the students reasoning abilities, logic and many other academic benefits. And they start learning Mishna and/or Gemorah at a very young age and continue doing so for the next decade.

    #1310467

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, if you ask most people in chinuch the problem is that there is an ongoing race as to at what young to begin Gemorah. At one time, many years ago, bochrim had to have a firm foundation in Chumash and Navi ( both with meforshim ) before tackling Gemorah. Not any more as virually no time is spent on Navi and Chumash after third or fourth grade/

    They have virtually no concept of how what they are learning fits in with Jewish history. Joseph, I wish what you claim to be was in fact happening but it is not.

    #1310471

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    I don’t think the actual regents test scores are publicly disclosed for individual schools so it is difficult to make direct comparisons. On an anecdotal level, I’d believe the assumption that yeshiva grads from schools with good secular programs score better than public school counterparts in the same communities. However, I’d be skeptical about the test scores I some frum schools where secular classes are not given much priority.

    #1310491

    bk613
    Participant

    While I can’t vouch for the integrity of the the regents in the public schools, I would encourage you to speak to boys who actually take regents in yeshivas and ask them what the testing environment is like. Then maybe we can explain the alleged discrepancy in grades…

    #1310530

    aokay
    Participant

    bk613: I don’t know why you speak that way about our schools. I am a teacher in one of the yeshivas and my children attend them as well. They take the regents extremely seriously and are proctored in silence throughout. Both the girls and the boys- on the whole- get very high scores. And yes, the boys do their secular studies in a few hours in the afternoon after a long day of learning.

    #1310531

    huju
    Participant

    Joseph has raised the question and given us his beliefs. Does anybody have any facts that answer his questions? And perhaps a more meaningful comparison would be Yeshiva students vs. Jewish public school students.

    #1310535

    shebbesonian
    Participant

    I can vouch for the integrity of the regent in the yeshiva in which I teach math. The regents are proctored by a few teachers in a gymnasium where all the desks are spread apart by a distance of the width of a few desks. The teachers alternate sitting in the back and pacing up the aisles. No teacher grades the exams of his/her class and the exams are graded according to the given rubric.

    #1310579

    Joseph
    Participant

    I poked around the NYS Board of Ed Regents data on their website. I didn’t fully explore it, but there does seem to be options to view school-by-school Regents results.

    #1310582

    akuperma
    Participant

    Yeshivas and public high schools are both incredibly diverse, so any overall comparison would be impossible. One can compare individual schools, but as a group it is meaningless.

    #1310594

    Joseph
    Participant

    akuperma, the comparative results can put to rest the lie that yeshiva students, as a result of an intensive religious curriculum that focuses less on secular studies, results in them lacking in knowledge and abilities in the core secular subjects of math, English, etc.

    #1310804

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You cannot compare Yeshivas to Public schools for the simple reason, Yeshivas can kick out low performing students and thereby increase the regents pass rate, Public schools by law are required to teach everyone including low performing students

    #1310817

    Joseph
    Participant

    Yeshivas rarely kick out students. And in the very rare instances it occurs, it is never because the student wasn’t doing well in secular studies.

    #1310866

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Yeshivas kick out students all the time, although in many cases its called “They are asked not to come back”, which is a nice way of saying get lost, we dont want you.

    We are talking about students with behavioral issues or just some with learning issues. While things like Dyslexia are now more known and some yeshivas can handle it, sadly many cannot or will not.

    Go to a NYC public school near a jewish area and see how many frum kids are in the special ed classes

    #1310912

    Joseph
    Participant

    I don’t know if you’re referring to MO schools, but in mainstream yeshivish yeshivos it is very very rare for students to be not allowed back. 1 in 1,000 perhaps. And even then it is for a very serious issue that the school felt the student is best served by a different school that is more geared for his issue.

    #1310925

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Joseph , its ALOT more than 1 in 1,000 and I am surprised at you, You clamored for Special Services for Frum students, and now you claim only 1 in 1,000 need it. Most of the students who need special serivces do not go to a regular yeshiva

    #1310947

    Joseph
    Participant

    Special educational services from the Board of Ed are most frequently provided in mainstream yeshivos. Many yeshivos have resource rooms and these children attend mainstream classes.

    Other parents might choose to send their child to a special yeshiva/school geared for his issues. But even in those cases it is in the vast majority of the time done at the decision of the parents who decided their child is best served there. It is very rare that the child was in a Yeshiva and the school forced them out against their wishes.

    In making the aforementioned comparison suggested in this thread, I wasn’t suggesting comparing mainstream yeshiva children to special ed public school children. Both yeshivos and pubic schools have special ed children. The comparison can be made apples to apples.

    In any event, I think it is fair to say that Yeshiva kids do quite well in secular studies and stand up respectable and better to public school kids in the same city/town as the Yeshiva kids.

    #1310965

    Joseph
    Participant

    Moilech: Which yeshivos and which public schools is that data from?

    #1311493

    Joseph
    Participant

    Who are the “represented yeshivos” and who are the public schools? And which DOE? And what was the data collected from and based on?

    #1311517

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

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    #1311913

    Joseph
    Participant

    Every state and many cities each have their own DOE. You’ve vaguely referred to supposed data from NY and NJ without identifying which state, which city, which DOE, which yeshivos or which pubic schools. In short, your vagueness leads to nowhere.

    Again:

    Which state?
    Which cities?
    Which DOE?
    Which yeshivos?
    Which pubic schools?

    What’s the name of the DOE document in question? Where on the site is the data? And what’s “TFD”?

    #1311996

    huju
    Participant

    It is very important to know whether yeshiva secular education is sound. Without any facts, Joseph has assured us that ihe believes that t is, but this thread has remained substantially fact-free.

    #1312164

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, meanwhile please disclose which schools you obtained your facts from before you demand that info from others

    #1312821

    Going back to the OP, and as my name indicates, I’m talking here about yeshivas outside of Brooklyn. Most of the mainstream yeshivas I’m familiar with do offer secular studies and seem to be taking them increasingly seriously. For example, one mesivta that previously did not offer AP’s now does. The vast majority of the boys did very well on their SAT’s. Regents are only administered in NY State, but they do pretty well on them as well. Many years ago Newsday had an article listing reading and math scores for both public and private schools in the boros and LI. For the most part the scores in the yeshivas beat those of the public schools in their districts. As a secular man who had attended Bronx Science in his youth once said to me, “the yeshivas must have very high academic standards with such a concentration of Jewish kids”. They don’t call us “the people of the book” only because of learning Torah. It is a long part of our tradition to be literate, including centuries when the rest of the world for the most part was not. No ethnic group can say the same except for Asians.

    #1312826

    TheGoq
    Participant

    We get it Joe Jews good, goyim bad, we win, yay team! yup got it.

    #1313131

    Joseph
    Participant

    Your data is from an unrepresentative tiny subset. It’s category of yeshivos is very far from comprehensive.

    #1313159

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, what is your data based on?

    #1313186

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    Moilech
    I’m trying to follow up on the information you’ve given us, I can’t seem to find anything online. Please provide the name of the organization or company that you’re referring to.
    You’re very willing to disparage Joseph for his lack of evidence, yet, you provide none as well.
    When Joseph asked very important questions, such as the sample size Etc, you got all defensive and tell them to look it up on his own. So here I ask you, please provide this information or direct me where I can find it.

    #1313235

    yehudayona
    Participant

    As I pointed out in the thread that apparently triggered this one, and as Huju suggested here, comparing public schools in districts like NYC, East Ramapo, and Lakewood to yeshiva students is disingenuous. Many of the public school students in those districts are educationally disadvanteged. For example, they come from single-parent homes, are not native speakers of English, or come from families where education is not a priority. A fairer comparison would be to high-performing suburban districts.

    #1313242

    鈽 DaasYochid 鈽
    Participant

    As I pointed out in the thread that apparently triggered this one, and as Huju suggested here, comparing public schools in districts like NYC, East Ramapo, and Lakewood to yeshiva students is disingenuous. Many of the public school students in those districts are educationally disadvanteged. For example, they come from single-parent homes, are not native speakers of English, or come from families where education is not a priority. A fairer comparison would be to high-performing suburban districts.

    Why? Because you don’t like the results of an equal comparison?

    #1313244

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Not all NYC schools are bad. In fact some of the best High schools in the country are in NYC

    Id like to see how an average Yeshiva student compares to an average Stuyvest or Bronx Science High school student and I am willing to bet the yeshiva student will not come out ahead

    #1313277

    鈽 DaasYochid 鈽
    Participant

    Why you think comparing the average student from the average yeshiva to the average student from an elite secular school is a fair comparison?

    #1313282

    aokay
    Participant

    I don’t think that the argument has to be made that Yeshiva students score higher than their counterparts.
    As we know, the boys are doing the same work in pnly 2-3 hours in the afternoons.
    As long as they are doing well and holding their own, that should be enough.
    True, if they spent many more hours and had nothing else to concentrate on, they would probably score a lot higher (as they do have the ability).
    But if they are doing well and can do well in college if they choose to go, why do we have a need to prove that they are scoring better than their counterparts?

    #1313283

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    People here seem to want to compare better yeshivas to worse public schools. East Ramapo or Lakewood isnt exactly the best places to compare, People with money who want to send their kids to public school wont live there, they will move. Non-frum people choose areas partly based on public schools

    #1313403

    yehudayona
    Participant

    DY, why do you think a comparison of two groups in vastly different socioeconomic groups is a fair comparison?

    #1313598

    Joseph
    Participant

    I’ll venture that even if you took all Yeshivos and Beis Yaakovs in the 50 United States compared to all public schools in all 50 United States, the Yeshiva guys and Beis Yaakov girls will come out on top. Even if I’m off somewhat, I’m fairly certain the average public school pupil in the 50 United States is not far above the average Yeshiva and Beis Yaakov pupil in secular studies.

    And all this is despite the fact, as mentioned, Yeshiva and Beis Yaakov students get far less hours studying secular studies than their public school counterparts. And have a far richer and longer school curriculum than public schools.

    And, furthermore, as I’ve mentioned above, this comparison is not even taking into account the great and very valuable practical life values that Yeshiva and Beis Yaakov students gain through their long, detailed and in depth advanced studies they have as part of their daily curriculum in Bible, Hebrew, Talmud, Aramaic, Jewish history, commentaries and much more that isn’t considered in these secular comparisons but provide significant educational and life benefits to Yeshiva and Beis Yaakov students.

    #1313685

    鈽 DaasYochid 鈽
    Participant

    DY, why do you think a comparison of two groups in vastly different socioeconomic groups is a fair comparison?

    I’m not davka picking any such characteristics as criteria. I’m simply comparing “Yeshiva High School Graduates versus Public High School Graduates”.

    You are the one being selective, possibly skewing the results. I’m not.

    For the purposes of how the discussion started, my way makes more sense than yours.

    #1314170

    joe
    Participant

    They could also be failing all yeshiva students who do not learn secular subjects.

    #1314835

    huju
    Participant

    Well, it’s good to know that so many Jews think yeshiva students are smarter than public school students. But 4 days after I suggested that someone present facts, this thread remains fact-free and opinion-heavy.

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