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Does the average NYC, Lakewood and Monsey Yeshiva high school graduate meet or exceed the knowledge and abilities in Math and English of the average public high school graduate in NYC, Lakewood and East Ramapo? And, similarly, for social studies and science.
How does the average Regents marks of Yeshiva high school students in NY compare to the average Regents marks of public high school students in NY? Or other standardized tests administered in yeshivas and pubic schools. Such as SATs, etc. Or standardized college/law school tests taken by Yeshiva graduates compared to the state/national average.
I woukld love to see the answers to those questions
though I would like to point out to some of those tests you will have biased samples.
For example SAT’s many yeshivas do not allow their talmidim to take SAT’s and others make it difficult (YOu Need the Yeshiva’s help to take it as they are offered on Shabbos unless a dispensation is granted). So for Yeshiva guys in many settigns the only ones who are taking the SAT are thsoe who take it somewhat seriously and have jumped through (minor) hoops to take it. As opposed to public schools where it may be a given that high schools take it.You shouldn’t be looking at graduates. You should be comparing all who attended.
Joseph, many yeshivas in Brooklyn and in Ramapo don’t teach most secular subjects. Many yeshivas, including MO, don’t teach Hebrew language,certainly not conversational.
There are no trilingual, some barely bilingual. They learn Gemorah all day, if that’s what you call Aramaic instruction.Public school kids on Long island do very well academically
Joseph, if you ask most people in chinuch the problem is that there is an ongoing race as to at what young to begin Gemorah. At one time, many years ago, bochrim had to have a firm foundation in Chumash and Navi ( both with meforshim ) before tackling Gemorah. Not any more as virually no time is spent on Navi and Chumash after third or fourth grade/
They have virtually no concept of how what they are learning fits in with Jewish history. Joseph, I wish what you claim to be was in fact happening but it is not.
I don’t think the actual regents test scores are publicly disclosed for individual schools so it is difficult to make direct comparisons. On an anecdotal level, I’d believe the assumption that yeshiva grads from schools with good secular programs score better than public school counterparts in the same communities. However, I’d be skeptical about the test scores I some frum schools where secular classes are not given much priority.
While I can’t vouch for the integrity of the the regents in the public schools, I would encourage you to speak to boys who actually take regents in yeshivas and ask them what the testing environment is like. Then maybe we can explain the alleged discrepancy in grades…
bk613: I don’t know why you speak that way about our schools. I am a teacher in one of the yeshivas and my children attend them as well. They take the regents extremely seriously and are proctored in silence throughout. Both the girls and the boys- on the whole- get very high scores. And yes, the boys do their secular studies in a few hours in the afternoon after a long day of learning.
Joseph has raised the question and given us his beliefs. Does anybody have any facts that answer his questions? And perhaps a more meaningful comparison would be Yeshiva students vs. Jewish public school students.
I can vouch for the integrity of the regent in the yeshiva in which I teach math. The regents are proctored by a few teachers in a gymnasium where all the desks are spread apart by a distance of the width of a few desks. The teachers alternate sitting in the back and pacing up the aisles. No teacher grades the exams of his/her class and the exams are graded according to the given rubric.
Yeshivas and public high schools are both incredibly diverse, so any overall comparison would be impossible. One can compare individual schools, but as a group it is meaningless.
You cannot compare Yeshivas to Public schools for the simple reason, Yeshivas can kick out low performing students and thereby increase the regents pass rate, Public schools by law are required to teach everyone including low performing students
Yeshivas kick out students all the time, although in many cases its called “They are asked not to come back”, which is a nice way of saying get lost, we dont want you.
We are talking about students with behavioral issues or just some with learning issues. While things like Dyslexia are now more known and some yeshivas can handle it, sadly many cannot or will not.
Go to a NYC public school near a jewish area and see how many frum kids are in the special ed classes
Joseph , its ALOT more than 1 in 1,000 and I am surprised at you, You clamored for Special Services for Frum students, and now you claim only 1 in 1,000 need it. Most of the students who need special serivces do not go to a regular yeshiva
וּמִֽזַּרְעֲךָ֥ לֹא־תִתֵּ֖ן לְהַעֲבִ֣יר לַמֹּ֑לֶךְ וְלֹ֧א תְחַלֵּ֛ל אֶת־שֵׁ֥ם
It is very important to know whether yeshiva secular education is sound. Without any facts, Joseph has assured us that ihe believes that t is, but this thread has remained substantially fact-free.
Joseph, meanwhile please disclose which schools you obtained your facts from before you demand that info from others
Going back to the OP, and as my name indicates, I’m talking here about yeshivas outside of Brooklyn. Most of the mainstream yeshivas I’m familiar with do offer secular studies and seem to be taking them increasingly seriously. For example, one mesivta that previously did not offer AP’s now does. The vast majority of the boys did very well on their SAT’s. Regents are only administered in NY State, but they do pretty well on them as well. Many years ago Newsday had an article listing reading and math scores for both public and private schools in the boros and LI. For the most part the scores in the yeshivas beat those of the public schools in their districts. As a secular man who had attended Bronx Science in his youth once said to me, “the yeshivas must have very high academic standards with such a concentration of Jewish kids”. They don’t call us “the people of the book” only because of learning Torah. It is a long part of our tradition to be literate, including centuries when the rest of the world for the most part was not. No ethnic group can say the same except for Asians.
We get it Joe Jews good, goyim bad, we win, yay team! yup got it.
Joseph, what is your data based on?
Moilech
I’m trying to follow up on the information you’ve given us, I can’t seem to find anything online. Please provide the name of the organization or company that you’re referring to.
You’re very willing to disparage Joseph for his lack of evidence, yet, you provide none as well.
When Joseph asked very important questions, such as the sample size Etc, you got all defensive and tell them to look it up on his own. So here I ask you, please provide this information or direct me where I can find it.As I pointed out in the thread that apparently triggered this one, and as Huju suggested here, comparing public schools in districts like NYC, East Ramapo, and Lakewood to yeshiva students is disingenuous. Many of the public school students in those districts are educationally disadvanteged. For example, they come from single-parent homes, are not native speakers of English, or come from families where education is not a priority. A fairer comparison would be to high-performing suburban districts.
As I pointed out in the thread that apparently triggered this one, and as Huju suggested here, comparing public schools in districts like NYC, East Ramapo, and Lakewood to yeshiva students is disingenuous. Many of the public school students in those districts are educationally disadvanteged. For example, they come from single-parent homes, are not native speakers of English, or come from families where education is not a priority. A fairer comparison would be to high-performing suburban districts.
Why? Because you don’t like the results of an equal comparison?
Not all NYC schools are bad. In fact some of the best High schools in the country are in NYC
Id like to see how an average Yeshiva student compares to an average Stuyvest or Bronx Science High school student and I am willing to bet the yeshiva student will not come out ahead
Why you think comparing the average student from the average yeshiva to the average student from an elite secular school is a fair comparison?
I don’t think that the argument has to be made that Yeshiva students score higher than their counterparts.
As we know, the boys are doing the same work in pnly 2-3 hours in the afternoons.
As long as they are doing well and holding their own, that should be enough.
True, if they spent many more hours and had nothing else to concentrate on, they would probably score a lot higher (as they do have the ability).
But if they are doing well and can do well in college if they choose to go, why do we have a need to prove that they are scoring better than their counterparts?People here seem to want to compare better yeshivas to worse public schools. East Ramapo or Lakewood isnt exactly the best places to compare, People with money who want to send their kids to public school wont live there, they will move. Non-frum people choose areas partly based on public schools
DY, why do you think a comparison of two groups in vastly different socioeconomic groups is a fair comparison?
DY, why do you think a comparison of two groups in vastly different socioeconomic groups is a fair comparison?
I’m not davka picking any such characteristics as criteria. I’m simply comparing “Yeshiva High School Graduates versus Public High School Graduates”.
You are the one being selective, possibly skewing the results. I’m not.
For the purposes of how the discussion started, my way makes more sense than yours.
They could also be failing all yeshiva students who do not learn secular subjects.
Well, it’s good to know that so many Jews think yeshiva students are smarter than public school students. But 4 days after I suggested that someone present facts, this thread remains fact-free and opinion-heavy.
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