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  • #606766
    gotbeer
    Member

    I guarantee if everyone in NYC signed up their kids to Public School in June for the next year school year, you would see vouchers for every kid by August to go to Yeshiva. By law they have to provide an education for every child. Either they would provide a bigger tax break or major vouchers will be given out. There is no way that NYC can handle all of the Jewish kids and find schools and budget it ontime. The point of this is to lower tuition.

    Let’s get the ball rolling. Whose in ?!?

    P.S. They tried this in Lakewood with school busses. Everyone called up to reg for Public school and the next day the jewish community got busses back.

    #909697
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is a constitutional law in NY forbidding vouchers, Its called a Blaine amendment.

    To get a constutional amendment in NY (you need an amendment to change the constituion) you need 2 consecutive legislative sessions (each session is 2 years) to vote for the amendment and then it goes for a vote before the people of NY. so it would take 3 years MINIMUM to change the law

    #909698
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    This again??!!

    OK, one more time…

    1. New York State has a Blaine Amendment in its constitution which prohibits state funding (barring a few excepted services) of schools where religion is taught or that is controlled by a religious institution.

    2. Flooding the public schools will not change point number 1. Even if every Jewish parent showed up with their kids, they won’t go ahead and say “okay, go back to your yeshivas and we’ll pay for it” because it is prohibited by the state constitution. True, they probably couldn’t handle it on day one, but within a few weeks, they’d probably be able to absorb them.

    3. The only way around the Blaine Amendment is to amend the state constitution. However, the process to amend the state constitution is over two years long. Are you going to leave your kids in public school for two years?

    The Wolf

    #909699
    akuperma
    Participant

    The public schools would rejoice. They get enough in state and federal aid to cover the marginal costs. The people who run the city would relish the opportunity to break down a community they see as infamous for gender segregation, homophobia, ethnocentrism, and religious fanaticism.

    By your logic, the response of Jews to the holocaust should have been to organize a march to the nearest concentration camp.

    If want lower tuition, all we have to do is to stop teaching Torah.

    That’s like dealing with the high price of food by starving. Same logic.

    #909700
    The little I know
    Participant

    Aside from the differences in laws that apply to Lakewood versus New York City, you must remember that Lakewood has a mayor that at least cares about the frum community. In New York, we have Bloomberg who has declared war on almost every issue that we held dear. It is only through the intercession by various politicians and askanim/organizations that we do not witness governmental attacks on many other frum issues.

    #909701
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    The best way to lower tuition is to make it a community-based thing, and not just have the burden on the parents of the students.

    Communities like Elizabeth, NJ do this to some extent. In Elizabeth, everything is under the JEC umbrella, headed by R’ Teitz shlita. The schools, shuls, etc. are all under one organization. Membership costs for shuls are higher than many other areas, but I believe some of that money is used for the schools.

    In Bergen County, they’ve begun trying to do something like this, with NNJ Kids. Their goal is to make tuition a communal burden.

    #909702
    gotbeer
    Member

    In this economy giving vouchers or a tax break is easier than accepting jewish kids into public school. Why would they take them in if they can get away cheaper. If it takes 2 years so be it. In the future it will be better. And I’m sure in a crisis it would take a shorter amount of time to change the law…

    #909703
    besalel
    Participant

    DaMoshe is exactly right. If the question is whether the child has a right to a Jewish education or if jewish education is a luxury, i believe the answer is that it is a right. For every right there is an obligation. Upon whom does the obligation rest to ensure that every child has the right to a jewish education? the answer is (1) the parents then (2) the grandparents and then (3) the community. This is a rambam is hilchis talmud toyra. in any event, the public school system which also recognizes that education is a right places the obligation upon the entire community. the catholic community which recognizes a catholic education to be a right places the obligation upon the entire community. it is only frum jews who view jewish education to be a luxury and not a right.

    #909704
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Communities like Elizabeth, NJ do this to some extent. In Elizabeth, everything is under the JEC umbrella, headed by R’ Teitz shlita. The schools, shuls, etc. are all under one organization.

    That would mean that all members of the shuls could attend the various schools (Whereas in Elizabeth, I imagine there is only one school). That is obviously not going to happen until Moshiach comes.

    #909705
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    In this economy giving vouchers or a tax break is easier than accepting jewish kids into public school.

    1. That’s not necessarily so. The money has to come from somewhere. If the economy is the problem, I would think that coming up with the money to pay for vouchers is going to be a big issue.

    2. It doesn’t really matter because what’s easier is not what’s relevant. It’s still against the law in New York to fund religious schools with public money.

    Why would they take them in if they can get away cheaper.

    Because that’s what the law requires.

    If it takes 2 years so be it.

    You’re kidding, right?

    Have you even considered the exclusionary nature of yeshivos today. There are parents who send their kids to particular schools because they don’t want them sitting next to my kids — and we’re Orthodox, Shomer Shabbos Jews. Do you really think that most frum Brooklynites will keep their kids in public school for two plus years??

    In addition, you’re facing two additional hurdles:

    1. In the span of two years, the city could *certainly* absorb the extra kids.

    2. Any change to the constitution must be presented to the voters of the state as well. All such previous attempts to overturn the Blaine Amendment have failed — miserably. You’re going to have a real tough battle convincing upstate residents (who are roughly two-thirds of the state population) that they should pay for yeshiva education of kids in New York City. In short, it ain’t gonna happen.

    The Wolf

    #909706
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    In New York, we have Bloomberg who has declared war on almost every issue that we held dear.

    This is irrelevant because funding for education comes from the state, not the city.

    The Wolf

    #909707
    ChanieE
    Participant
    #909708
    shmoel
    Member

    Previous referendums on the Baine Amendment repeal did NOT focus on funding religious schools. It was much broader and the school funding issue was little discussed. A more narrow amendment can succeed at the polls.

    #909709
    Mammele
    Participant

    What if we all decided to home school our kids (and not exactly competently)? Is there a way for them to handle it? I’m not sure how involved the city/county is with this and what their responsibilities are – if any. Just asking. I’d imagine they won’t appreciate if thousands of students are getting a sub-par education or running wild. Would they arrest thousands of parents for truancy? Again, I’m not familiar with the topic but it would seem like a better idea than public school.

    #909710
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Previous referendums on the Baine Amendment repeal did NOT focus on funding religious schools. It was much broader and the school funding issue was little discussed.

    Considering the fact that the Blaine amendment is about funding of private religious schools, in what way could discussion about it not focus on that very issue?

    The Wolf

    #909711
    shmoel
    Member

    The Wolf: Check the NYTimes archives from before the repeal polls. It was a much broader proposal than to just allow funding parochial education, which was a little discussed aspect. The referendum (all in one vote) was more than just repealing Blaine.

    #909712
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I’d imagine they won’t appreciate if thousands of students are getting a sub-par education or running wild.

    Do you hear yourself? You’re suggesting that parents basically ruin their children for two years for the sake of saving a few thousand dollars. Sorry, but my kids’ education is worth more than that.

    The Wolf

    #909713
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Check the NYTimes archives from before the repeal polls. It was a much broader proposal than to just allow funding parochial education, which was a little discussed aspect. The referendum (all in one vote) was more than just repealing Blaine.

    I don’t have access to the NYT archives (and I’m not willing to pay).

    In any event, however, this is outside the topic of the OP. The OP discussed flooding the public schools to “force” the state to pay for yeshiva education, which, as we’ve shown, is not going to work.

    Removing the Blaine Amendment, through proper procedures, is a different discussion and is not related to the point of flooding the public schools with our kids.

    The Wolf

    #909714
    besalel
    Participant

    I do not believe the Blaine Amendment will stand as an impediment to vouchers. In Zelman v. Simmons-Harris, 536 U.S. 639 (2002), the Supreme Court ruled that voucher programs do not violate Ohio’s Blaine Amendment if the program meets all of the following criteria:

    (1) the program must have a valid secular purpose,(2) aid must go to parents and not to the schools,(3) a broad class of beneficiaries must be covered,(4)the program must be neutral with respect to religion, and (5) there must be adequate nonreligious options.

    #909716
    Mammele
    Participant

    Wolf: I was just countering it as a better idea than registering for public school — I’m not sure if it’s a good idea myself, just something worth exploring. Also, your kids will get as much education as YOU manage to instill, they don’t HAVE TO run wild. And I didn’t mention anything about two years, if everybody is on board I think some compromise will be reached sooner.

    #909717
    laron
    Member

    what about the government has to provide an education to every kid by law? It is not so simple if a 100,000 frum kids registered into the public school system that it wouldn’t be a state of emergency. The state and the city would be forced into doing something radical. It is impossible to find sufficient for so many students even in 5 years. They would need to find a place by Labor day and they cant just say all you kids just stay home and do nothing.

    Easy to say just pay for Yeshiva, perhaps you are much better off financially than most. Tuition is a big strain on the average frum family. There are people who have resorted to the public school system, and sadly it will become more common as tuition gets higher and unbearable.

    #909718
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    The state and the city would be forced into doing something radical.

    As I have said before, they would simply split the school day into two sections of 8-1 & 1-6, and double the capacity (as was done when Yidden still sent to public school in the ’30s). The city would be thrilled if this would happen.

    #909720
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Mods,

    Is there a reason my posts aren’t being put up?

    The Wolf

    too much spam. we’re working on it.

    #909721
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    too much spam.

    From me??

    (Aside from the post that I put up that had the word “Spam” repeated ad nauseum, of course.)

    The Wolf

    #909722
    truthsharer
    Member

    Someone mentioned homeschooling, and that is indeed an interesting option. There are some communities where many people do that, but it has its own challenges.

    I could also see yeshiva-only schools charge more if homeschooling becomes popular, because the schools would lose some funding that does not come from the State such as Federal programs to combat drugs, which is how many yeshivas fund their libraries, etc.

    #909723
    lesschumras
    Participant

    What would stop yeshivas from raising tuition by the amount of the voucher?

    #909724
    farrocks
    Member

    What would stop yeshivas from raising tuition by the amount of the voucher?

    Competition.

    #909725
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Homeschooling would work.

    Every states Blaine amendment is slightly different so even if the one in Ohio passes muster, the one in NY is different and the laws apply to it different

    #909726
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Father is learning, mother is working, who is home schooling? Is mom teaching her sons Gemara?

    #909727
    laron
    Member

    Gavra, are you the city and state combined decision maker? it is the most rediculous think to say that the schools would keep such hours. Really, remember these are union teachers and everyone that works in that building is part of a union. there is no way the city is paying all of these teachers and all personel over time for the next so many years. Think about what it would cost the city to pay for all of this. i still feel that they would have to do something to subsidize tuition. Furthermore who said that these teachers would be willing to work all those hours everyday. Do you have an idea how much infrastructure would need to be created. you are living in a dreamworld if you think that would happen overnight. Have you ever done busness with the city? Any clue how long it takes them to do a simple task? This is no simple task to create. Have you ever started or grown an organiztion? If you are being honest or have real knowledge you would know that this is an impossible task in such a short time and the amount of money it would cost. I am still trying to figure out why you are being so over protective of the status quo?

    #909729
    The little I know
    Participant

    Competition in the chinuch world is simply not enough to accomplish much. Let’s examine things. To purchase at a store, one can choose to buy it at store A versus store B. Why? Because it is cheaper, or perhaps there is better service. One might make the choice to provide the parnosoh to someone known rather than a stranger. But the product is basically the same. Chinuch bears little to no resemblance to this. Yeshivos are all different. The only common theme is that they house the child for the duration of the school day. The choice element is negligible, as many talmidim do NOT really have much choice where to go, and this refers to parents as well. The school has the option to reject and application, or to keep the talmid out of yeshiva if tuition is not paid. The parent is stuck at that point, and the leverage is such that money comes from somewhere.

    The actual competitive issue in chinuch is the mirage that one yeshiva learns more than another, their talmidim get tested by a Rav outside of the yeshiva and do well, or the “name” of the yeshiva is touted as “metzuyan”. These are all fluff, as the production of the talmid who will remain steeped in Torah and Yir’as Shomayim, even if a member of the working world, is still the individual result of a family plus a 1:1 relationship with a rebbe somewhere along the line. It depends on many factors, including one’s individual nature (usually self-motivation), Syatta Dishmaya, and other elements that converge for the single talmid. Our chinuch system contributes quite little to this, and no yeshiva can lay claim to being the producer of the true talmid chochom. They do make such washing statements, but these are empty words. Examine any such talmid, and you will find too many other contributing factors.

    No one is really competing for anything today. Yeshivos charge whatever they can get away with, and once they have you, tough. Discussions about midos do not pertain to yeshivos or schools. That issue is for another thread.

    #909731
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    laron, I would agree with you, if not for my personal knowledge that this has been done in the past IN NYC due to overcrowding. If you are worried about unions, they would certainly perfer my solution than give money to non union workers in Yeshivos! There are provisions for paying overtime, and the unions (where the members would get a huge raise) would be thrilled to get all that money.

    #909732
    uneeq
    Member

    Wolf: (Aside from the post that I put up that had the word “Spam” repeated ad nauseum, of course.)

    I did the same exact thing!

    #909733
    MCP
    Member

    But then all the boys going into chinuch will have to get jobs and never get a shidduch!

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