Yeshiva tuition for large families

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  • #1159388
    charliehall
    Participant

    SAR High School offers four foreign language options: French, Spanish, Latin, and Arabic. (Hebrew and Aramaic are not optional but mandatory. 😉 )

    #1159389
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    French and Spanish are Romance languages derived from Latin, so essentially taking French , Spanish or another romance language like Portugese or Italian is essentially taking latin

    #1159390
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Charlie

    I didn’t go through the list checking each school. I did just check Townsend Harris’ website in Queens and they still offer 4 years of Greek

    I guess the list might be as ancient as the Greek being taught VBG

    #1159391
    CTRebbe
    Participant

    It looks like we have strayed far from the topic. What were we talking about ? Oh yeah Yeshiva tuitions-how do we solve the tuition crisis gentlemen? I believe that the rule in life is that if it can’t be solved in the YMN coffee room it can not be solved anywhere.

    #1159392
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Because the tutiton crisis cannot be solved. It is likely at some point it will collapse as the tutition rates are unsustainable

    #1159393
    flatbusher
    Participant

    I have known people who send their children to different schools but a single school may not give them a break for all the kids, but a different school may give a break for an individual child.

    Regarding tuition. Given schools do get federal funds and that schools seem to higher a certain proportion of young, inexperienced teachers who may not command a big salary–or would accept a lesser salary to get the experience–I wish I can understand why tuition is as high as it is. Furthermore, the benefits teachers receive from what I hear are not so great, so where does the money go?

    #1159394
    karlbenmarx
    Participant

    There is a lot of Jewish money in NYC dedicated to at best narishkeit like saving the planet, the arts, saving the fill in the blank people of the Sahara, etc, but even more money by the likes of the UJA is spent on ANTI-Torah projects like toeiva.

    #1159395
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    CTRebbe

    I think the Yeshiva Tuition crisis really revolves around the difference of opinion as to whether men should become Kollelniks or Baal Batim.

    I’m from the pre-WWII American Orthodox school of thought that this is a land of opportunity and you can succeed and make a good living while sending your children to yeshiva and college and professional school so that they may do the same for their children

    I have sons and sons-in-law. All went to Yeshiva through high school. Places that offered competent secular studies., They continued learning full time for a year or two before college, then did college and professional school. All are professionals earning a healthy living while maintaining a learning schedule and sending their children to yeshiva. I did not underwrite the cost of their post college education nor am I paying for our grandchildrens’ tuition. B”H they can manage the bills.

    That said, I give more than my fair/expected share of Tzedaka and I resent those who feel I should have less or spend less in order to fund salaries in assorted yeshivas.

    By your handle I assume to teach in one of our few CT yeshivas. Chances are you don’t have any of my grandchildren in your school, but chances are I’m an annual donor supporting the institution.

    And for our Brooklyn friends….surprise much of the funding for Day Schools and yeshivas in CT comes from Non-Frum Jews, Including annual allocations from Jewish Federations throughout the state. I fought for this more than 35 years ago when Federations started to fund the Schechter schools.

    #1159396
    DerShteygingYid
    Participant

    What I have always found strange is that people talk about how little day school/yeshiva rebbes make. I do not know about other places, but where I live, the rebbes make twice as much as public school teachers. Twice. And that is not an exaggeration.

    Another way of looking at it is that they make 137% of the average *HOUSEHOLD* income in my city.

    #1159397
    ironpenguin
    Member

    I realize that yeshivas may not be the best at secular education and may not even realistically teach learning very well. The fact is that all frum kids have to go to a yeshivah/Bais yaakov, regardless of the scholastic achievements of the school. It’s just the way it is.

    Most frum families I know of have about 6-8 kids and not everyone is a doctor/lawyer that’s bringing in 7 figures. So how do people do it?

    My impetus for this post is because I’ve heard from friends and peers who, after seeing their parents struggle with tuition costs, are trying to deal with overwhelming yeshiva obligations by limiting family size.

    This route has been given rabbinic allowance, and those “special situations” are becoming increasingly more common.

    This disturbs me and I’d rather not succumb to what I see as a threat to Orthodox continuity.

    My question to those parents of many, is how they do it? Do you live your life normally but within budget and claim poverty? Or do you have an extremely low food budget, rent small apartments, and buy older used cars to pay for tuition,

    #1159398
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    This disturbs me and I’d rather not succumb to what I see as a threat to Orthodox continuity.

    That’s a new one. Claim Halacha if you would like, but with 3 or 4 reaching maturity that is more than the typical Jewish family 150 or even 100 years ago.

    My question to those parents of many, is how they do it?

    Either make a boatload of money or claim poverty. Saving and scrimping will not help unless you make a boatload anyway. Even if you make a boatload you may still need deductions, like the familiy with 10 children and the father making 400K a year.

    400K pretax = 200K Net.

    200K net – 120K tuition (assume 12K per child, may be more) = 80K

    80K – 50K Mortgage + Utilities = 30K

    30K = Insufficient for necessities of 10 children, including Minivan, insurance, food and clothing.

    #1159399
    huju
    Participant

    Re zahavasdad’s comment about Spanish, French and Latin: Latin as taught in public schools is nothing like Spanish or French. Latin is not taught as a spoken language, only as a language to be read. Grammar, usage, declension, conjugation, tense, and mood are taught rigorously and in depth. It helped me enormously with English, not because the two languages are similar, but because the teaching of Latin takes an analytical approach to the language.

    #1159400
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Gavra………..

    Your 400K gross would not suffer 50% tax bite for a couple with 10 children who would have 12 deductions.

    Having a mortgage, property tax and other deductions it is unlikely the tax bite would exceed $100K

    Thus the bottom line would be 130K not 30K

    I’d also question a 4k per month mortgage payment in this low interest rate market

    #1159401
    lesschumras
    Participant

    My chevrusa’s yeshiva is now up to date. They had a matching fundraiser similar to Darcheis Simcha fundraiser. One of the conditions was that the yeshiva had to seriously evaluate how they got into the mess and make specific meaningful changes in their operations

    #1159402
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Most Yeshivas are run by people who know about Chinuch, but dont really know how to run an organization by accepted accounting principles

    #1159403
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Gavra………..

    Your 400K gross would not suffer 50% tax bite for a couple with 10 children who would have 12 deductions.

    Having a mortgage, property tax and other deductions it is unlikely the tax bite would exceed $100K

    Thus the bottom line would be 130K not 30K

    I’d also question a 4k per month mortgage payment in this low interest rate market

    Most of which get kicked out due to AMT. Add state taxes plus social security, and you are easily at 40%.

    I didn’t even count health insurance or camp of some sort, so add another 15K for health (pre-tax) and depending on the type of camp, up to 50K (5K per child for sleep away, 1.5K for day camp?). Assuming 4 in sleep away, that makes another 30K (including tips and the sort).

    #1159404
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Not even close to 40%. Without even counting deductions, using an online calculator, it’s effectively 35%, federal and state (including FICA).

    It’s also unlikely that all 10 kids will be going to camp, or $12k school, at the same time.

    At $400k, even a large family can live very comfortably.

    #1159405
    CTRebbe
    Participant

    Gavra- unless you are speaking from personal experience, I believe your numbers are way off. If you need someone to put you in contact with a good accountant and financial planner I am sure that your friends in the YW coffee room can do that. I think that a person making 400k a year most likely has wrong is a less than glatt hashkafa that I can spend without limits.

    DerShteygingYid- I don’t know where you live but I would appreciate you sharing it with us so that all Rabbeim can move to your gan eden hatachton. I have never heard of a place where Rabbeim get double what public school teachers make-and I yes I have been in the Jewish day school business for a while.

    As general perspective, Dr. Marvin Schick who is probably the biggest maven on day schools in America (may he live and be well), also sees the current model of sustaining yeshivos as unsustainable. It seems that the only way to keep things going is for those in our communities who make big money and waste it on lavish things (20 piece orchestras at weddings, 70k on pesach vacations etc) need to step up to the plate. I know its easy for us little guys to tell others how to spend their money, but we can all try to show some revulsion when we see people spend a ton of $ on a simcha. While you are inhaling that extra helping at the shmorg try to look at the baal simcha as a nebach who was given money without sufficient brains to match.

    #1159406
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DaasYochid, CTRebbe – Could be. I’d like to see your cheshbon on how much (gross) a family of 12 needs (10 children ages 5 – 20, let’s say).

    I only know from someone who actually made 400K and showed that he needed a scholarship. Don’t remember the exact details at this minute, but there may have been mitigating circumstances.

    #1159407
    Joseph
    Participant

    We’ve been hearing about the impending collapse of the frum yeshiva system due to its unsustainable financial structure for… well over 50 years already.

    #1159408
    lesschumras
    Participant

    CTrebbe, your suggestion would when every yeshiva’s finances and books were subject to independent audits.

    #1159409
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    akuperma……….

    OOT Federations support orthodox Day Schools as well as Conservative

    IN CT the Federations fund:

    Chabad Day School in Orange

    Ortho Day School in West Hartford

    Ortho Day School in Stamford

    Ortho High School in Stamford

    Ortho High School in West Hartford

    Yeshiva K’Tana Waterbury

    Federations also support Orthodox institutions of higher learning. Looking at the IRS form 990 of the small Jewish Federation of Western CT I see $10,000 given to Yeshiva University

    While many in this forum don’t consider MO as Chareidi. there is no question that YU is a Torah institution.

    The Federation in Boston supports 13 Jewish Day Schools INCLUDING:

    BAIS YAKOV of Boston High School for Girls

    New England Hebrew Academy (Lubavitch)

    Maimonides and Torah Academy in Brookline

    #1159410
    Joseph
    Participant

    CTL, whatever support the Federation gives out of town to a small number of institutions of Orthodox education, it is a tiny minuscule portion of its national budget and incomparably smaller, even per student capita, to its support of non-Orthodoxy.

    #1159411
    CTRebbe
    Participant

    Joseph- I bet if you were to compare the benefits the Orthodox receive compared to the contributions made by Orthodox people you will see that the Orthodox come out way ahead. I don’t have hard numbers to back it up, but would prefer not giving anyone any ideas to try and conduct a study. Hence you can’t just cry “zeh lo fair” and expect everyone to give the Orthodox more. The only way you can complain about how federations spend their money is if you are contributing enough to make that difference. Whether you should or not, ask your LOR

    #1159412
    Joseph
    Participant

    I bet if you were to compare the benefits the Orthodox receive compared to the contributions made by Orthodox people you will see that the Orthodox come out way ahead.

    I bet if you were to compare the benefits the poor receive compared to the contributions made by poor people you will see that the poor come out way ahead.

    So the poor should stop whining that they receive so little benefits. Let them pay the piper; little contributions, little help.

    #1159413
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Joseph…

    why would you expect Federations to give more per capita to orthodox schools than conservative, reform or non-denominational schools when the majority of Federation participants are not orthodox?

    My listing was to refute akuperma’s assertion that Federations don’t support Torah institutions.

    I’m no great fan of Federation, but OOT one is part of the total Jewish community, not just the frum community and one supports federation. They also maintain many cemeteries, pay for kosher supervision at colleges, nursing homes and hospitals and even salaries for the Jewish chaplains at local hospitals.

    I mentioned the Yeshiva K’Tana in Waterbury, because CTRebbe had made a remark about Yeshiva K-tanas suffering at the expense of kollelim. The local Federation gave $45,000 last year, up from $33,000 the year before. You can be sure that 90+% of this money is coming from non-orthodox contributors.

    #1159414
    Joseph
    Participant

    CTL: I said that the Federation, on a national basis, gives far far less per capita to Orthodox students or their educational institutions that it gives to non-Orthodox students or their educational institutions.

    I know they give a few shekels to a small number of OOT Orthodox schools. But the reality is that current Jewish growth is occurring, by far, within the Orthodox community. The UJA’s own 2011 Jewish Community Study of New York showed that 61% of Jewish kids in the New York Metropolitan Area are Orthodox. Yet we both know that virtually no Federation funds go to Hareidi Yeshivos, despite that Pew’s 2013 survey of American Jewry shows that 66% of American Orthodox Jews describe themselves as Ultra-Orthodox (including 81% of American Orthodox Jews aged 30 and younger).

    It is clear that the Federation does not provide funding to the vast majority of Orthodox Jewish students or educational institutions.

    #1159415
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Joseph…

    comparing Federation allocations nationally makes no sense. The vast majority of Jewish Federations exist in places without orthodox day schools or yeshivos.

    That’s why I highlighted OOT Federations I’m familiar with who all allocate funds to orthodox day and high schools if they exist.

    OOT Jewish life is far different that in town. It’s not unusual for Jewish business people and professionals to belong to and pay dues to multiple synagogues. We support the shuls we grew up in even if we no longer live in the area. After all, OOT the shuls generally own and keep up the cemeteries, not lansleit or for profit businesses as in NY and NJ.

    When New Haven had a litvish Day School in addition to Chabad it got Federation funding. Bridgeport uses the fund the former Hillel Academy and does contribute to both the New Haven and Stamford Day school where Bridgeport area kids attend as commuters.

    If Hareidi NYers expect NY Federation to fund their schools then they have to get involved with Federation. They can’t say we won’t work with non-frum towards the grater good and still expect a handout.

    #1159416
    Some Common Sense
    Participant

    ironpenguin,

    I understand the question very well. Given the lack of current leadership, we have to look out for own family most to ensure their best education as frum yiden. If that means a financial sacrifice, HaShem will reward us more so. The money HaShem loans to us are not for our pleasure but for his service. Nevertheless, the schools are NOT off the hook and will need to answer for every penny which I think will not be pretty; if it was, they would open their books for all to see.

    #1159417
    karlbenmarx
    Participant

    Joseph is right, CTlawyer isn’t, the federation in NYC UJAFEDNY is anti-Orthodox even if their new guy claims to be. they give money left and right to every “cause” and toieva under the sun but wont give yeshivas even SAR which is left wing MO gets nothing. having or not having UJA around is the same when it comes to yeshivas.

    #1159418
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    karlbenmarx………….

    How can I be wrong when I was specific that I was NOT talking about the NY Federation?

    As I said, if you want something from Federation you have to get involved and stop treating them as the enemy.

    If you do not participate and advocate for your particular cause you will not receive anything.

    #1159419
    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    If the Federation is explicitly the enemy of yiddishkeit then why would Yeshivahs want to “get involved” with it?

    The CT day schools mentioned here are dwindling and willing to take money where they can. There are a lot of completely irreligious students who, for whatever reason, go to MO day schools sometimes. I heard they even take in Chinese goyim sometimes who hear that those schools turn out better SAT scores.

    Before I get accused of discrimination, if we were all OK with sending the kids to school with a bunch of chilonim and goyim, we would just send them to public school with a kosher meal in their lunchbox and wait to teach them Torah when they get home and save tens of thousands per year. We all know why that’s not done.

    #1159420
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    No MO school takes Non-Jews. That is downright slander. Maybe there are Solomon Schecters or some other simialr schools that dont check, but MO Schools under Torah Umesorah are strict about only taking Halachic jews (They might take some who arent , but are under going conversion)

    #1159421
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “No MO school takes Non-Jews.”

    Not supported by the facts.

    “but MO Schools under Torah Umesorah” MO Schools are under Torah Umesorah?

    And even if some are, many, if not most are not. You thereby disproved your first comment.

    #1159422
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “No MO school takes Non-Jews.”

    Not supported by the facts.

    “but MO Schools under Torah Umesorah” MO Schools are under Torah Umesorah?

    And even if some are, many, if not most are not. You thereby disproved your first comment.

    #1159423
    Abba_S
    Participant

    While in some out of town communities the religious and non religious Jews have banded together to support each other, in NYC it is not being done. While some yeshivas may have a guest of honor who is not religious in order to get addition donations they can not compete with secular non profits for the bulk of the non religious donations.

    A community supported yeshivas are the only way to go as having a yeshiva will maintain the neighborhood. The problem is non parents wouldn’t want to contribute. Showing them that if the yeshiva closed the parents would move in order to send their children to yeshiva resulting in fewer people in shul which will encourage more people to move out reducing the value of their homes and eventually closing the shul.

    #1159424
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Abba_S

    Your theory of good schools increase/maintain home values is the one we use in local government when selling the education budget to town residents each year.

    When our school rankings fall, home values lag behind those in area towns.

    I’m a prime example of someone with no kids left in the schools who pushes for education funding to maintain real estate values.

    The current administration of our town has cut too many corners on the education budget for 6 years. Quality is down and real estate prices have not rebounded as in neighboring towns. Last night I was at a Town Zoning commission meeting and 2 mid 30s attorneys tendered their resignations announcing they had bought homes in the next town because our schools have gone downhill. Neither has sold their current home and both expect to take losses, but their kids education comes first. These are Goyim, but Jews can do the same.

    I remember in the 1970s when the topic of Federation funding for the local Chabad Day School in the New Haven area came up. It was passed because it kept white Jews in town during a period of white flight and would shore up property values. This made economic sense to non-frum Jews and millions have been allocated in the past 45+ years

    #1159425
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    In NYC and the immediate suburbs, there isnt a “community” like there is elsewhere. In the MO world there are more centralized schools like SAR which while located in Riverdale serves Westchester and Teaneck.

    North Shore High School which serves Great Neck, Roslyn and parts of Queens.

    Hebrew Acadamy of Nassau County serves the entire Nassau County (except for 5 towns area ) parts of Queens and Suffolk counties as well.

    In the Yeshivish communities many send their kids “OOT” to schools like in Long Beach , Riverdale) and Peekskill where the schools have little to do with the immediate neighborhood

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