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(This is for gavra at work who said his thing about rabbi wolfson [saying university is easier and better choice than yeshiva and i assume also to kollel half-day] on the pic post and asked someone to make a new thread)
So what are peoples opinions?
(something relevant please) [kick off anyone who just uses this post to chat pleeeease moderator]
Why work when you can learn Torah all day and its so much easier? You get all the ruchniyus PLUS the gashmius.
How much do they get paid in kollel?
The workplace, even frum workplaces, is not a place for a good Jewish boy. We have to be there, granted; we have to make a living for our families – which is a Mitzvah in itself – but we need to realize the price we pay for those necessities.
There is a story in the mussar seforim, about a man who had a premonition that next year’s crops would be poisoned, so that whoever would eat it would become insane. He didn’t; know what to do — if he would eat the crops he’d become insane, but if he does not eat the crops, the whole world will be insane except him, and being the only normal one in an insane world is just as bad as being insane. Warning people about the crops is useless because nobody would believe him anyway. So he went ot the village wise man who told him, “You have to eat the crops. You’re right – that being the only normal person in an insane world is as bad as being insane. Plus it will drive you crazy anyway. But here’s what you do:
“Tie a string around your finger to remind yourself constantly that you have eaten from the crops and you are insane. Being insane is bad, but in this case you have no choice. However, for the rest of the world, much worse than being insane is the fact that they will think they’re normal. Being insane is bad, but being insane thinking you’re normal is much worse. So tie a string around your finger which will always remind you that you are insane. You’ll be insane, but at least you’ll know you’re insane. Everyone else will think they’re normal, so you’ll be much much better off than the rest.”
The nimshal is, there’s nothing wrong with going to work, and often it may even be a necessity. But to spend the gift of life that Hashem gives us for such a short time in this world selling cars or programming computers or whatever we need to do to make a living, is insane. It may be necessary, but it’s still insane. We have so little to live in this world (we should all live to 120 years, but compared to eternity in the afterlife, 120 years is nothing), and its our only chance to collect Torah and Mitzvos — how crazy is it to busy ourselves with other things??
But we have to? OK, we have to. At the very least, let us realize that we do so out of necessity and that making a living necessitates our leading a life which, when you consider what we’re on this world for and the opportunities that exist ONLY while we are here, is insane. Let’s at least realize that.
For those who learn all day, they may not need to tie strings around their fingers, but, unfortunately, in the materialistic and confused world that we live in, they need posts such as this one, to constantly remind them that their lives are very, very normal, sane, and healthy.
The hardships of Kolel are nothing compared to the pleasures. Like Rav Aharon ZT’L said – that those who support learning might get Olam Habah like those who learn, but they surely don’t get Olam Hazeh like them. Money isn’t everything – even in Olam Hazeh.
Yeshiva and university are not mutually exclusive. Starting in the time of the rishonim, many Jews went to university after years in yeshiva and some became gedolim. Starting in the early 20th century it became possible to do yeshiva and university simultaneously at places like YU and Touro.
For some, university education can enhance ones Torah. That was certainly true of Rav Hirsch (who didn’t even complete a degree), Rav Soloveitchik, and Rav Lichtenstein. But university is not for everyone; I would not recommend it to those who aren’t mature nor to those whose faith is shaky.
See now, some people think it is important to be a talmid chochom. Some people think it isn’t. That is a normal debate.
But, I get annoyed when people present arguments as if they are satisfying both sides, when really they are making a compromise, which satisfies neither.
Going to college and learning in the morning, does not accomplish the same objective as learning all day. If you think that half a day is the right amount, you should say so. Don’t pretend it is the same.
Trying My Best; When someone dedicates their life only to the study of Torah, their lifestyle must be adjusted accordingly. There are stories of Talmidei Chachamim of about 90 years ago and what Spartan lifestyles they had. Their daily meals consisted of a slice of bread dipped in Olive Oil. Their wives and children also went along with their deprived standard of living. But when someone (who is in Kollel full time) wants to keep up with today’s standard of living, then there is an imbalance. Because the funding must come from somewhere. In most cases it’s the wife, who is overburdened by running a household and a well-paying job at the same time. As far as going to college is concerned. It should be pursued with the goal of learning a Profession. Not just for the sake of getting a (secular) education.
“If you think that half a day is the right amount, you should say so.”
I think learning part of the day and working part of the day is the ideal.
So did Rambam.
And this applies even to talmidei chachamim, who should spread their knowledge through teaching and writing.
Soright, my gut reaction was, and the workplace is better for the women, and the parents who have to keep deferring retirement to keep their families afloat?
But then I read on. And I’m torn. I realize that the olam haTorah is infinitely sweeter but why not be a bit more upbeat, so instead of going to work thinking, this is insane, this is terrible, one can say, hareini muchan imezuman to earn an honorable living, support my family in a Torahdik home, share of my bounty with others, etc. Much better for the blood pressure.
At the recent Chofetz Chaim Heritage Foundation for women, one of the women spoke movingly about this. A group of businessmen came to the Chofetz Chaim asking for chizuk on staying shtark in the workplace. They figured they’d be urged to take on, say, extra learning. The Chofetz Chaim said that he had a plan that wouldn’t involve an extra moment of their time. It’s this mindset, that every action has mitzvah and kiddush Hashem potential.
I’m not doing this justice but I don’t have time to check my notes. Maybe someone else can expand on this.
And I think a LOT of young men would benefit from working half day, learning half (actually more, there’s the evening too) day. It would very likely maximize their learning time. If a seed could be planted in the minds of young men who don’t see themselves as klei kodesh…
For more information on universities and Jewish participation in the Middle Ages, read “Yeshivot Ubatei Medrashim” by Breuer. Also see Rabbi Dr. Ephraim Kanarfogel’s many excellent articles on the rishonim and their influence on and from their non-Jewish intellectual counterparts.
blueprints:
a) No one disagrees that they were a minority for the reasons you mentioned.
b) Why?
c) Though they were a minority, as we already agreed on, they were far from the ony three.
popa: They do accomplish the same objective; limmud hatorah. If that isn’t the objective then says so.
I, for example, go to college. I think it’s better to learn 3-5 hours a day and go to college (and waste time on the coffeeroom) the rest than to learn 3-5 hours a day and spend the rest batteling and talking lashon hara because there’s nothing else to do in yeshiva.
I agree with Popa.
ItcheSrulik, I agree that one fulfills his requirement of limud hatorah without spending the whole day learning. However, I am extremely skeptical that one can become a real talmid chochom, posek, torah leader etc. that way. I simply don’t believe it. Therefore if that is one’s goal, telling him to make such a compromise will do nothing. You can debate from here till tomorrow whether or not that should be any specific person’s goal, but the point is if it is it will not happen with such compromises, at least not until he completes a considerable amount of shas and poskim.
Charlie, though the Rambam presents this as the halacha in hilchos Talmud Torah, he does also mention that a city (a 120 person city) has to have 10 batlanim, i.e. people who do nothing but sit in the beis medrash and learn all day. So clearly there are exceptions to the rule.
Blueprints, you happen to be wrong about the universities and anti-semitism. While that was the case in the areas of France and Germany, up until the Rambam’s time in Spain there was not much anti semitism at all, and many Jews received a secular education. It was called the Golden Age, check it up on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_the_Iberian_Peninsula
Rambam does also mention that a city (a 120 person city) has to have 10 batlanim, i.e. people who do nothing but sit in the beis medrash and learn all day.
Since even according to Rambam we need 10 FULL TIME learning-only Jews per 120 Jews, we today still have a long way to go to reach this ratio. We have far less full time Torah learners per 120 people. Especially considering most Jews aren’t even religious, let along learners. (And I doubt we have even close to 10 to 120 counting only religious Jews.)
popa have you ever heard of Rav Soloveichik, Rav Hutner, they went to university and they became major gedolim. many other talmidei chachomim have gone to college to be able to get a parnosah and yet still learned. Have you ever heard of yeshiva such as yu, landers, and machon lev they learn and go to college and produce talmidei chachomim, so please don’t tell me that it doesn’t accomplish the same amount when it really does.
yechezkel:
You are a perfect example of the people I am talking about.
Why don’t you go to a medical school and tell them they could really learn the same amount of medicine even if they go to law school at the same time. I am sure you will be able to dig up a few people who did negotiate that successfully.
To be quite frank: If your argument has merit, you don’t need to trick people into it.
Yechezkel, Rav Sololovetchik and Rav Hutner were certainly giants of their generation, but they only went to university after they had mastered much if not all of shas and poskim.
Trying My Best, indeed, that is a very popular “pro-kollel” argument. However, you must take into consideration that the Rambam is discussing a city, not the overall population of the world. So there are those who will argue that one town where %50 of the population learns all day does not accord with that Rambam. Also, it’s not so pashut it’s a ratio thing.
The main thing is to live a life of Emes. If you can be in Kolel and do it by totally honest means and by not being a tremendous burden on your parents – then Kol Hakavod! But if you have to do it by acting dishonest – then it defeats the point. Not getting married legally to stay on your parents insurance is dishonest. Having Hud pay your mortgage by buying a house in your mother in law’s name is dishonest. I personally don’t agree in govt programs for Kollel couples – but I won’t say it is dishonest if you actually are eligible for them. While I don’t think it is the responsibility of the US govt to pay for a Kollel life – I do very strongly disagree when people are dishonest. When I was first married and we were starting out in Kollel (where we stayed for 15 years) – we put our chassana money in a CD that was paying about 9%. When my husband told his chaveirim in Yeshiva about it – they all told him that they couldn’t do it because their chassana money was in other’s name so that they could get programs. That is wrong! So Emes is the main thing. Hashem does not want your Torah if you have to lie to live that life. And I can’t believe that He wants your parents to kill themselves to support you either. So if you can do it yourselves – go for it. But please remember – Dovid Hamelech – Sheperd, Mosheh Rabeinu – Sheperd, Yaakov Avinu – Sheperd. The Shevatim all worked – you can’t have a world where everybody is learning all day. Education is important. High School for Boys is important. College is important. Yes there are people who made it without it – but the Teva here is America is that college increases your chances of supporting your family in a Bakovodika and Honest manner.
Very eloquent, aposhitermaidel.
The issue as I see it is not learning or working. The issue is the nature of family life. It seems to me the kollel lifestyle is a major social experiment involving the husband, wife, children, and extending to the in-laws. Incidentally, elderly parents could hope that their children would help them out as they became older. These days, elderly parents are delaying retirement in order to continue supporting children well into adulthood.
It is pashut that it is a community thing. A 10-member kollel is part of the necessary infrastructure of a kehilla. That does not mean that everyone is chayav to be one of those 10, otherwise, where would we get the toen and the nitaen?
yitayningwut: I disagree. We all know talmidei chachomim who either work for a living or are retired and made most of their kinyan torah while working.
Nope, don’t know anyone who is a real, solid talmid chochom, who did not first spend a while exclusively involved in learning. And even if you find me an exception, I still do not believe it is normally possible. I’m not talking about someone who has a few yedios and can klerr pshat in a R’ Chaim or even someone who knows Mishna Brura backwards and forwards; by a solid talmid chochom I mean someone who knows shas and poskim cold and has the capacity to give it over to klal yisroel. As Popa said, it’s simply foolish to assume someone can become a top brain surgeon while attending law school at the same time he is in medical school. An amateur yes, but not a specialist. I simply don’t believe it, and I am talking from experience.
I didn’t say that they never spent a few years in learning. I said that they made most of their kinyan torah while working. I.e. a 65 year old man who matches the description you suggest, but is now a retired actuary living in flatbush. Are you going to tell me that everything from the time he turned twenty-one was just chazara? (These details aren’t made up out of my head. I’m talking about someone in particular.) Obviously someone who plans on being toraso umnaso has to take it at least as seriously as any other umnos, but you can become a talmid chochom –not rosh yeshiva level, but a talmid chochom nonetheless — learning part time.
As for your moshol, I once worked with a guy who was doing just that, except it was two phd’s in completely different fields instead of law school and an MD. At the same time, some of our coworkers were in medical school while going for a phd in some other science.
As for your Phd friend, that is precisely the point. While I don’t doubt that there are people who can achieve greatness in both, would you really counsel a young medical student that it will not hurt his studies to be in law school (or yeshiva) half a day?
It’s not that everything is chazarah, but that to really understand what you are learning when you don’t have all day to be me’ayen, takes a considerable amount of prior knowledge and understanding. If a guy sits and learns for a number of years, going through most of shas and poskim, then it’s possible he will reach that level of talmid chochom even if the remainder of his years are spent with a schedule split between learning and other things. As for your Phd friend, I can only reiterate what Popa said. He is obviously the exception, and not the rule.
The phd is obviously the exception, but it all boils down to the question of whether everyone needs to be toraso umnaso. If they don’t, then let them learn 3-5 hours a day. The fact is, a lot of people don’t do much more than that while in yeshiva and some do quite a bit less.
“I highly doubt there was even a small minority of university education during the times of the rishonim (AND TO THEN BECOME A RISHON???!!!!) especially since anti-semetism was rampant in those days.”
Yes, anti-Semitism was rampant, but less so in Italy than in Western and Eastern Europe. All the examples I’ve found of Jews attending university in pre-modern times were in Italy or the Muslim world. Most Christian universities did not permit Jews to enroll.
Sforno earned a medical degree at the University of Rome. You can look it up.
Rambam is considered to be an alumnus by the University of Al-Karaouine in Fez, Morocco, although at that time universities in the Muslim world did not grant formal degrees. He studied Greek and Islamic philosophy there (and in his later writings argues on both).
“you’re better off going to yeshiva halfday and university the other than YU”
The YU undergraduate program (for men) is yeshiva the first part of the day and university in the afternoon. How is YU less kosher than other universities?
“you have quoted the only 3 gedolim in history who ever did “
Rambam and Sforno weren’t gedolim?
Rav Hildesheimer, Rav Herzog, Rav Hutner, and the Lubavicher Rebbe weren’t gedolim????
“Why don’t you go to a medical school and tell them they could really learn the same amount of medicine even if they go to law school at the same time. I am sure you will be able to dig up a few people who did negotiate that successfully.”
That is impossible today. Medical school and residency is far more than full time work. The commitment is a minimum of seven years.
That said, the amount of Torah learning that takes place at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine is amazing. I am proud to be on the faculty.
“Yechezkel, Rav Sololovetchik and Rav Hutner were certainly giants of their generation, but they only went to university after they had mastered much if not all of shas and poskim.”
I’ve often pointed that out — and the same is true of the pre-modern university educated rabbis such as Rambam and Sforno. In our times, Rav Lichtenstein and Rav Tendler were already Roshei Yeshivot when they started their doctoral training — but they both had earned undergraduate degrees earlier.
“A 10-member kollel is part of the necessary infrastructure of a kehilla. “
I’m not so sure. Riverdale thrived for decades without one. We now have two, plus a rabbinical school.
“That is impossible today. Medical school and residency is far more than full time work. “
I partially withdraw that statement. There actually exist programs where one can earn an MD and a JD. However, it lengthens the time commitment substantially.
“don’t know anyone who is a real, solid talmid chochom, who did not first spend a while exclusively involved in learning.”
I don’t know of any either, but some did not do the full time learning until after graduating from college.
Charliehall, I don’t think you and I are disagreeing much. I agree that there is nothing wrong with secular studies, and one can be a real talmid chochom and have a college degree as well. We also seem to agree that to become a real talmid chochom (On the level of those gedolim who have been mentioned) does require a considerable amount of time in which one is exclusively involved in limud hatorah, regardless of whether it is before or after one earns a secular degree. Regarding your statement that you aren’t sure about the ten member kollel thing, well, if you’re going to quote the Rambam about splitting one’s day between learning and working, shouldn’t you also take his word that a city needs 10 batlanim?
ItcheSrulik, I do not believe, at all, that everyone has to be toraso umenaso. However, for one who wishes to become a true talmid chochom, I do not think there is another way than the one I’ve been saying.
When I said that it was a necessary part of the infrastructure, I meant that it was so according to the halacha in RaMBaM under discussion (end of Sanhedrin ch. 5). I guess since our communities are structured differently than they were back then, they have different needs. After all, the RaMBaM’s calculation was based on having a bes din of 23, a single melamed for the entire community, and other things that aren’t part of our system today. Does riverdale have a tanner? Flatbush doesn’t.
off-topic: You teach at Einstein? Do you know… (modern orthodox equivalent of mikvah gossip ensues)
“shouldn’t you also take his word that a city needs 10 batlanim?”
I’m not of stature to argue on a Rambam! What do other rishonim say? How does the shulchan aruch rule? I’ve honestly never studied this one.
“bes din of 23”
I am quite sure that we do not have 23 men with yadin yadin semichah so that would be impossible in my community.
“a single melamed for the entire community”
Baruch HaShem we are blessed with many wonderful teachers in several Jewish preschools, a modern orthodox elementary/jr. high school, a modern orthodox high school, and two traditional boys’ yeshivot.
“Does riverdale have a tanner?”
Not that I’m aware of. I don’t think the local zoning would permit it.
“You teach at Einstein?”
Yes. I’m easy to find on their internet site. I post under my real name.
“Charliehall, I don’t think you and I are disagreeing much”
I think you are correct.
Yugermen: theres a kollel in Miami which pays $40,000!!! Hatzlacha with the beach lol!
😉
This is so funny and wrong I don’t even know where to begin.
I’ll just say you are disagreeing with Rav Moshe Wolfson, who says learning is a much easier lifestyle (since that is the language you understand).
If you want to debate this please start a new thread.
Emphasis added.
Being that you completely misunderstood me (Are you ESL?), I guess I can’t say anything about the “at work” part either.
But I now understand more how the p’sakim in the names of the “gedolim” get created.
B’Hatzlacha
G@W
P.S. this was a response to MF, who said:
Yeshiva and learning Torah is harder than working. If there is anyone who shouldn’t be complaining, it is those who are in college or working. The Yeshiva guys should be handed a silver platter for the Avodas HaKodesh they sweat for.
If anyone would like to argue with me and agree with MF, please bring some sort of reason why.
YW Band:
How easy is it to get in?
What’s rent, housing costs, insurance, etc.?
What are tuition requirements? (Sometimes out of town schools are generous because they’re grateful to have the community built up. Sometimes not.)
Dr Hall: You make my point for me very well. He was talking about a community structured very differently than the ones we have today. His list is predicated on a certain community structure. We have a different one. Incidentally, whose post is the quote beginning “shouldn’t you also…” coming from? The rest of your post is written as a rebuttle to mine, but I didn’t write those words.
‘whose post is the quote beginning “shouldn’t you also…”‘
It was by yitayningwut.
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