January 12, 2011 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #594146
When I read the disturbing story on the plane thread, this immediately jumped to my mind.
A friend of mine teaches in a BY elementary school. We were speaking recently and she was describing how she has the most trouble with the yeshivish kids. She says the more “modern” children (I don’t know how she defined this) have manners, so they behave in class. It seems that the more yeshivish parents fail to teach their children manners. My friend called up an older teacher for advice about a particular kid. She started the conversation with “there’s this girl from a very chashuv family” The teacher immediatesly said “IT DOESN’T MEAN A THING” – as if she has heard this time and time again. All Jews must have derech eretz, to be an example. However, People from homes in Kollel, chinuch, or rabannus must behave with even more derech eretz because of the high level of Torah they represent.January 12, 2011 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #727325real-briskerMember
NOT AGAINJanuary 12, 2011 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #727326truth be toldMember
My experience out in the street has been just the opposite. Ok, not completely. There are plenty of “modern” people with rotten middos, who feel anyone who dosnt do things “their” way is second class. There are “Yeshivish” people with the same tude.
To suggest that a modern lifestyle encourages good middos and that yeshivish lifestyle encourages bad middos is silly. If you’d like to suggest that, kindly, fill us in your logic without stories. Just pure logicJanuary 12, 2011 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #727327WolfishMusingsParticipant
I know plenty of people who are yeshivish/chassidish — some have good manners and some have atrocious manners. The same applies to some “modern” people as well. And it even applies in the non-Jewish world too.
In other words, I don’t think it’s a “yeshivish” thing to have bad manners. Your friend may just have the bad luck of having a bad sample.
The WolfJanuary 12, 2011 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #727328gavra_at_workParticipant
Anyone who is taught fear of the other will belittle and dehumanize them. This will cause them to disrespect, after all he/shee is only a “fill in your term here”.
Both yeshivish & non-yeshivish families can dehumanize others.
I have seen it done here by some posters, and have called them out for it (specificly for using a term for non whites).
But those who push the fear of the other (which we see many times in both Yeshivish & non Yeshivish families) will “encourage bad middos” towards those other groups.January 12, 2011 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #727329not IMember
I am not sure what the benefit is of such a thread besides to put down a large group of klal Yisroel with no actual basis.
In fact I know many yeshivish ppl, many more modern ppl and you CAN NOT generalize about this!January 12, 2011 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #727330NonsenseMember
I too find this to be the truth. It should / must be addressed.January 12, 2011 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #727331JoseMember
I have to agree with truth, that my experience, and I can only talk about my own experiences, have been the opposite.
It appears to me that commenters who start such posyts have an agenda that includes falsley painting Yeshivish people negatively. And that is from my experience.January 12, 2011 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #727332
I do not have an agenda and I’m not trying to put anyone down. As a matter of fact I consider myself yeshivish and my friend is more yeshivish than I am.
I merely want to point out something that I, and my friend have observed, so people can do something about it.
Also, manners and middos are not the same thing so they cannot be interchanged, as some people have done. Manners stem from societal norms, while good middos come from torah study, self improvement, and mussar.
The observation is that more so called “modern” people are more in touch with societal norms, and general society, so they MAY BE MORE LIKELY teach their children manners. While, so called “yeshivish” people are less in touch with societal norms and general society, so they MAY NOT teach their children good manners.January 12, 2011 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #727333MDGParticipant
I see manners and Middot as two sides of the same coin. Middot are internal and manners are external. If you worked on your middot, you should have good manners. For example, if you taught yourself patience, you won’t cut a line.
One would expect that a Yeshivish person, who we assume learns mussar and other ethical teachiings, to have internalized the ethics and act with manners. Therefore, I think that they are being judged more carefully, and maybe rightly so.January 12, 2011 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #727334ha ha ha haMember
firstly there is no way you can generalize a specific sect
secondly hudi the situation you are bringing up is one where young boys 11 and 12 years old wake up really early to go to school by the time english rolls around they have no patience to sit and learn they want to have fun!! and no this is not an excuse for their behavior they are young and boys that sat in one place for more then 6 hours!!!January 12, 2011 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #727335truth be toldMember
Hudi: Please, I’m having a difficult keeping up. Are you suggesting that behaving in class is a “societal norm” such as apple pie and fried chicken? That behaving in class is not based upon respect and proper middos?
Again, if we are going to brand a way-of-life as producing kids who misbehave in class- which is defined as bad manners, and another way-of-life, as producing kids who behave in class which is defined as good manners, it sure should not be based upon some unverified observation. It should be based upon logic. You have not done so.
Maybe a teacher who views “yeshivish’ children negatively, will bring forth negative behavior of these students…..January 12, 2011 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #727336SJSinNYCMember
I’ve been told by friends of mine who teach general studies in very Yeshivish schools is that the classes are touted as not important and therefore the students are less likely to take the teacher seriously. Also, the principals don’t back them up because its just general studies classes and not Judaic studies.
I don’t know if this is true. I do know, that when I was in elementary school, we were definitely meaner to the non-religious or non-Jewish teachers. Although, we were rather mean to a teacher right out of seminary when I was in 5th grade and basically ripped her to shreds. So maybe kids just feed on weaker teachers.January 12, 2011 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #727337
“In sociology, manners are the unenforced standards of conduct which demonstrate that a person is proper, polite, and refined. They are like laws in that they codify or set a standard for human behavior, but they are unlike laws in that there is no formal system for punishing transgressions, other than social disapproval. They are a kind of norm.”
*I understand the difference between manners and middos. I’m just trying to make a distinction between the two.*
MDG – I agree with you about the disctintion between manners and middos. (In fact I actually typed the disctinction, but decided not to write it.)However, I think manners teaches that particular actions are wrong – don’t interupt, don’t cut the line etc, while middos teaches that certain CHARACTER TRAITS are wrong. For example, it is wrong to be a ba’al ga’avah – it might lead to cutting the line, interupting people, and lack of respect, because you think you are better than other so you can do these things. I think manners just say – don’t do this it’s not nice, while middos says – a Jew must behave differently than the non-jews – which involves working on negative character traits that lead to behaviors that are considered bad manners. I think it is easier to say “people don’t do that” rather than “work on this midda.”
ha ha ha – this particular situation was 5th grade BY girls
truth be told – I don’t think apple pie and fried chicken are societal norms. I also don’t understand why logic is necessary to make this particular point.January 12, 2011 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #727339GabboimMember
“Manners stem from societal norms”
If that’s how you are choosing to define manners, there are many times we Jews either must or are better off to differ from “societal norms”. If that means someone will declare they lack “manners” so be it, rather than the alternative.
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