Yeshivish/Chassidish vs Frumkeit

Get a life! Get a life! Get a life! Get a life! Get a life! Get a life! Get a life!
Other than that I have no opinion.

Yeshivish means that which emanates from the yeshivos. It means a lifestyle, ideology, and demeanor, and often appearance, which reflects the character of the yeshiva that the person learned in. For girls, it’s the home that they came from and/or aspire to build.

On the OP.

I agree with your take.

As well as the definition of frum given by Yserbius.

However, ‘Yeshivish’ can also be used to refer a certain cultural type.

It should be noted, that frum is not the same as halacha.

Halacha just means that they are meticulous in their practice.

Frum signifies a deeper religious drive.

So we have three categories in each group. Member in good standing. Meticulous observer of halacha. and Frum.

It’s worth keeping in mind, that the slide that we notice as we look to the left is mostly on the first category. Since these three categories all blend, we try to talk about superiority. Much like how Lubavitchers may pontificate on the other threads.

[לא תתגודדו- לא תעשו אגודות אגודות [יבמות י״ג ע״ב
The more divisions you make, the more you’re pushing away the גאולה

Chaim Volozhiner was not yeshivish, he was Rosh Yeshiva.

I agree with those that this is cultural/aspirational. It may lead someone to be better than they’d be otherwise, or it may make someone think that dressing up the right way is good enough, no need to spend hours learning and years to improve your middos.

Honestly Hashem is choker klayos valev. There are yidden who are not meticulous about Halacha but may be very close to Hashem.

Yabia, how is one close to Hashem when they flout His will and aren’t interested in keeping what He said to do?

Mesilas yeshorim perek 1 – mitzvos bring us close to Hashem. Aveirod bring us further from him.

ABCs of yiddishkeit.

And then there’s Chassidish. That also means different things to different people. Mainly it’s about following the BESHT, or following a Rebbe who himself tries to follow the BESHT.

Da, your rebbe got it from the satmar rov, most likely. But you need to see what he says in context.

sechel, things like that are why I am adamantly opposed to chassidus in general. Torah was given at Har Sinai to the entire nation. One of the reasons was that so nobody could deny it. The Besht’s teachings represented a radical change from traditional Judaism. So why were they “revealed” to him and him alone? He claimed he ascended to the Heavens and learned with Achiya haShiloni. Do we have records of anyone else ever doing such a thing? Tanaim? Amoraim? No, we don’t. So why would the Besht be able to do such a thing?

BTW, you took that line out of context. Here is the full text of the letter that the Besht wrote:
“I asked the Messiah: When will you come? And he answered me: Hereby you will know, when your teachings will become known and revealed in the world, and your wellsprings will burst forth to the furthest extreme, that which I taught you and you comprehended, and they too will be able to engage in unifications and elevations as you can, and then all the husks will be removed, and it will be a time of favor and salvation. And I wondered about this, and I was greatly distressed about the great length of time: When can this be? But what I learned when I was there is three charms and three holy names. They are easily learned and explained. And I thought: It is possible that with this people my age will also be able to reach a level like mine.”

Amirican, thanks for R Moshe’s quote. I heard this expression as an “litivishe saying”, but was not sure whether it has right pedigree or comes from some chiloni sources. Glad to hear that R Moshe approved it. I actually suggested ehrlich instead of frum when kids started using the latter term before I heard the expression, and I am glad that my intuition has a good source! thanks, again.

Da, you also are playing into the hands of chabad, who routinely say that anyone against them is just against chasidus.

There are very, very few important people nowadays who are complete misnagdim. Rav yisroel elya weintraub was one such gadol, but since him and rav weinberg from canada….i don’t know of any others nowadays.

Whereas chabad painted rav shach as a misnaged to chasidim in general when he opposed their last rebbe, rav shach wrote letters and spoke openly about how he “can’t imagine klal yisroel without chasidim,” and how much he was machshiv them. Briskers often marry chasidishe women; the whole premise is ridiculous.

This discussion is somewhere between silly and meaningless. After all the opinions posted here about what should be precise definitions for these terms, they get used by people who have not investigated the linguistics, and are used interchangably. They mean whatever the speaker meant at that moment. And there is no established lexicon for any of these. I hope to save the time for many people who would otherwise waste their time opining here.

amirican, my background is Litvish with some German influences and whatever countries my family travelled in last 100 years. I have Yeshivish, Modern, Sephardi, Chasidish (mostly Chabad) friends. Most have both good Jewish and general education. I enjoy asking them all questions 🙂

Avira…, what is your definition of a misnaged?

I feared this. The direction of the comments has deviated from the applicability and meaning of labels into a debate about chassidus. If the parsha of Korach means anything to us, it needs to be the lesson about refraining from machlokes. I haven’t an issue with different approaches to Avodas Hashem, regardless of their similarity or contrast to mine. If someone has reasons to serve Hashem differently, go ahead and do so. Don’t attack the mesorah of others if you don’t understand it.

Little I know, what Mesorah? The Besht did NOT have a Mesorah for his teachings. The entire “Mesorah” for Chassidus stems from the Besht, and is only a few hundred years old.

Dear Always,

A chossid is not the term for one who finds favor by Hashem.

The classic term is ‘tzaddik’.

‘Frum’ in the OP is synonoumous with ‘Ehrlich’.

It means one who posseses a lifelong ambition to perform mitzvos.

Such precious yidden seem to be scattered throughout the the different cultural groups.

Dear Avira,

Chabad is much closer to Chassidus as the Baal Shem intended it.

Dear Yserbius,

People are keeping halacha for the fun of it! It is part of our cultural acceptance. I have to keep as more halacha than Family Jones to keep my sense of self or our standing in the community.

@n0mesorah Are talking about the so-called “Orthoprax” people who are outwardly frum only for practical purposes? When I say keep halacha, I mean keep all of halacha. I mean, sheesh, even the most anti-Torah atheist Maskil probably still keeps some traditions, like not eating pork.

@sechel83 Again, the opposition to Chabad has nothing to do with misnagdus. The criticisms mentioned in the other thread were also echoed by notable Chassidishe Rebbes.

“only one” famous Rosh yeshiva..

Let’s change that to “I’m familiar with only one famous Rosh yeshiva,”

There were a lot; you’re going to have a harder time finding roshei yeshiva and gedolim who were pro chabad, excluding mizrachi.

sigh Mods, my intention was not to say that every letter written by a certain Gadol B’Yisroel is inane, rather that people study every word he wrote as equal to Chazal, whether it’s Torah or a simple Mazal Tov postcard.

I understand,  but emotions run high and the way it was worded begged extra sensitivity.  I appreciate your understanding.