November 7, 2011 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #600397
I was at a kiddush this past Shabbat for an aufruf. The boy is rather yeshivish and a number of his friends were there. I noticed that all the boys, from the chatan to his younger brother, to his friends, to a number of other single men there, all wore their shirt collars open with a tie (many of them in garish neon colors) bearing an over sized Windsor Knot and ending well above the waist band (where a tie ought to end). what’s up with this? Has the Borsalino style hat become too ubiquitous to serve as an identifier of yeshiva leit? Is this the new tell of a yeshivish man? Can anyone explain why dressing poorly is so popular?November 7, 2011 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #826217bptParticipant
Shirt collars open = Boys, no. Poppa CHECK
Tie in garish neon colors = Boys, yes. Poppa, no
Over sized Windsor Knot = NO
Ending well above the waist band = NONovember 8, 2011 4:02 am at 4:02 am #826218lolkatzMember
If this is the only thing to pick on them for they’re in good shape.November 8, 2011 4:32 am at 4:32 am #826219netazarParticipant
I’ll take a wild guess: They escorted the chatan to shul for his aufruf that morning and got a little overheated. So they loosened their ties, and opened their collars. Loosening the tie pulls up the ends (remember this is a guess), and if they loosened the knot that would make it look fuller.
guess number two: Someone in their crowd heard that a full Windsor knot is more formal. So they all decided to wear it. Now, by it’s nature this knot uses more material in the knot, so less is left for the ends. Hence, the short-looking ties. Also, a full windsor should have a spread collar shirt, and since the guys didn’t have one, they opened their collars to accomodate the wider knot. They also wore their loudest ties to show off their knots.
I might as well bring up the point that I think some people don’t hold by this kind of knot on Shabbos, considering it more of a permanent knot.November 8, 2011 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #826220ravshalomParticipant
cantoresq – was this in Israel by any chance? What you describe has been the Israeli yeshiva bochur’s style there for at least 5 years, maybe more.November 8, 2011 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #826221yungerman1Participant
Sounds very Israeli!! HUGE windsor knot and tie ends 6 inches above the waistlineNovember 8, 2011 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #826222
It was in Rockland County, New YorkNovember 13, 2011 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #826223
all the boys, from the chatan to his younger brother, to his friends, to a number of other single men there, all wore their shirt collars open with a tie (many of them in garish neon colors) bearing an over sized Windsor Knot and ending well above the waist band (where a tie ought to end). what’s up with this?
That’s rich, coming from you.November 13, 2011 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #826224am yisrael chaiParticipant
perhaps satirical sartorialismNovember 14, 2011 2:37 am at 2:37 am #826225
squeak – let’s not forget that the OP has claimed in other posts that he brings novels to shul to read while the Rav speaks – if I remember correctly it was because 1) he didn’t want that particular Rav for his shul and 2) the novels are more interesting than the Rav from his shul
so here we have a someone criticizing a bunch of young men over their lack of kavod in their dress but openly displays a lack of kavod to the Rav of his shul!November 14, 2011 3:03 am at 3:03 am #826226
THIS POST is the one I remember, did you mean a different one?
Hard to forget those fire and brimstone days…. though maybe it’s best to let sleeping dogs lie?November 14, 2011 3:34 am at 3:34 am #826227
squeak – I would have to go back and search the threads. the post you referenced was one that I had in mind. the other comments must be in a different thread. truth be told – it isn’t worth it for me to look it up.November 14, 2011 4:20 am at 4:20 am #826228
Nothing like a little character assasination and kill the messenger. But allow me to clarify a few things. I don’t recall saying I take novels to schul. I do readily admit taking books with me to schul to read as I find the services boring, especially the poor aesthetics. The only novel I recall bringing was by Chaim Grade, which is a special class of fiction. And BTW, the rabbis of the schul in which I daven, are well aware of my reading habits. My criticism of yeshiva leit wearing their collars open is based on it looking unkempt. There are those who may feel my casual Shabbat afternoon outfits are too casual for the day. But I am never unkempt.November 14, 2011 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #826229
You were more than the messenger, you were the witness, judge, and jury. When you use your subjective sense of righteousness to condemn the yeshiva world, you open yourself up to questions about your own character. If you can’t handle the responsibility, keep your mouth shut in the first place.
Where do you get the right to decide that your casual golf attire is preferable to formal attire worn casually? I’m with the yeshiva boys over you on this one.November 14, 2011 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #826230soliekMember
well…squeak…thats where youre wrong. personally i think that this thread is an unfair generalization and perhaps the person who started it needs to work on his ahavas yisroel, but setting that aside, there is a very clear and distinct difference which aplies to any mode of dress between that mode of dress being worn as intended, neatly and fashionably, and that mode of dress being worn sloppily.
for example. suppose youre wearing a polo shirt and chinos but your shirt is half untucked and your chinos are horribly wrinkled…then youre doing polo and chinos wrong. similarly with suits and ties…you can either wear a suit and tie like a normal person, where the tie has a normal windsor or your choice of knot, the jacket is either buttoned or not, the shirt is neatly jucked into the pants, and the pants are not wrinkled, the legs are long enough, and one cuff isnt turned down.
now of course you can argue that the way some bochurim dress, large windsors, midriff length ties, oddly buttoned jackets, untucked shirts, IS their mode of dress. ok…valid point…but would you condone a mode of dress that consists of wildly oversized clothing, pants down below the rear end, and untied shoes?
i rest my case.November 14, 2011 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #826231
The issue is grooming. Soliek makes a valid point. But at it’s essence I’m referring to grooming; looking neat, looking like one spent a few minutes every morning and insuring basics like, one either shaved or trimmed and/or combed one’s beard. Insuring that one’s ears are clean. Combing one’s hair. Grooming means pressing pants and wearing shirts that are not wrinkled, or socks without holes, polishing one’s shoes and having them heeled when necessary. It means showering and wearing deoderant. The whole point of the alter of Slabodka’s dress code, one patterned on middle class business dress of his day, was to imbue his students with a sense of dignity and pride. Similarly the Dejer Rav insisted that boys in his yeshiva have their pants pressed at all times. There is a value, a spiritual value in properly presenting oneself and in proper personal hygiene and grooming. It matters not what the actual clothing is. What matters is being well groomed.November 14, 2011 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #826232soliekMember
gadlus ha’adam 101November 14, 2011 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #826233OneOfManyParticipant
And I thought only GIRLS were this judgemental of attire…sheesh…November 14, 2011 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #826235
The apparel oft bespeaks the manNovember 14, 2011 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #826236
The issue is grooming.”
there are other issues 1) appropriate attire, and 2) appropriate behavior for the setting that you are in.
You seem to exempt yourself from both of these while you present yourself as one who looks down at those that don’t meet your expectations for them.November 15, 2011 12:14 am at 12:14 am #826237OneOfManyParticipant
The apparel oft bespeaks the man
Sorry, how does that give you license to be judgmental?
I’m not trying to bash you here (as others on this thread are). But if you want people not to judge you, then don’t judge others. It really doesn’t matter if it has to do with grooming or not. If you want to judge them, do so – just don’t expect them to afford you the same treatment.
And generally, it’s just prudent not to concern oneself with others’ hygiene.November 15, 2011 1:13 am at 1:13 am #826238
Mod-72 you’re correct. I don’t want to conform to the mores of parts of my neighborhood because I’m quite comfortable with who I am, as I am. I suppose, to a certain extent, my obstinacy reflects a certain level of contempt for my surroundings.I don’t think that my neighbors care all that much though. We’re kind of an eclectic bunch in my little derfel. But thats the crucial difference, those yeshiva leit who walk around poorly groomed or improperly clad, intend no statement. Thet mistakenly believe they are showing respect for their surroundings and acting properly. It’s that error that creats the dissonance, and needs to be corrected.November 15, 2011 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #826239
One, indeed it is prudent not to concern oneself with the hygiene of others. But we all share this planet. One man’s poor personal habits is another man’s sensory assault.
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