June 13, 2011 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #776383
DY: But normally, you don’t have to check, so as far as we are concerned, he is “Bar Mitzva”, due to the Chazaka, and we have no chiyuv to check.
Here, as with other dinei D’Oraysah (such as Laining Zachor), the individual must be checked.
Yes, I was just nitpicking on the distinction between a “bar mitzvah” and a “bona fide godol”. I would have distinguished between a “13 year old” and a “bona fide godol”.
I fail to see the need to wait beyond the thirteenth birthday (assuming the hairs are present). It can easily be determined via medical exam if the hairs are present (if the boy himself is not believed).
AS per Shulchan Aruch (167 – 3) we do indeed check (but he is not believed because we would first need to determine if he’s a gadol before we give him credibility).June 13, 2011 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #776384nishtdayngesheftParticipant
You say “It can easily be determined via medical exam if the hairs are present”
Why a medical exam? What makes that any better? Is the Doctor a shomer torah umitzvos? Why does it have to be medical? If it is an issue, two Jews who are gedolim can look and say eidus, no need, or benefit for that matter, for a medical exam.June 13, 2011 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #776385WolfishMusingsParticipant
Is the Doctor a shomer torah umitzvos?
Why not? Is such a thing an impossibility?
You say “It can easily be determined via medical exam”
I figured most thirteen year old boys would have an easier time proving such a thing to a doctor rather than a rav. Forgive my sensitivity to the feelings of teens. I should have known better. My apologies. Chatasi, Avisi, Pashati…
The WolfJune 13, 2011 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #776386
If it is an issue,
What’s the “if”?
two Jews who are gedolim can look and say eidus
I think that’s what he meant.June 13, 2011 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #776387nishtdayngesheftParticipant
There is a long standing bias to accept the words of doctors over the words of our gedolim. A doctor may well be useless in this situation and have absolutely no neemanus while two plain Yiddelech off the street can make the difference.
I do not have to expound on what type of people I am referring to.June 14, 2011 3:09 am at 3:09 am #776388
I figured most thirteen year old boys would have an easier time proving such a thing to a doctor rather than a rav.
Actually, they would probably have two men checking stealthily in the mikveh.
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