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Last night I want to a Chasuna of a relative. I was so shocked from the noise that passes as music. I thought I had the wrong place. What’s gotten into some people? In middle of a wedding to do exercising? The blaring noise, those motions?!? So not ‘batampte’. It seemed to blend in so well with the non-yiddishe workers.
How does a Yid start off married life on such a ‘rocky’ start?!?
So dont do it at your wedding.
Get used to it, it aint gonna change any time soon.
One reason that Ahashvarosh avoided music at his wicked party was that music means different things to different people.
Goq:
+1
Zeeskite- i agree with you entirely. i believe it is a day of kedusha for the chosson and Kallah and some of the dancing and music can be a little rocky but there are 2 reasons for this kind of dancing (depending on the people).
1- they want to dance in a goyish way
2- they got carried away in all the excitement
both reasons are valid and yet i think everyone should be aware of what they want to do and if they dont want to dance like that then they should be careful with themselves, thats all.
plus the GOQ is right, if you are one that does not want that by your wedding, just make sure to read over the list of songs your band wants to play and make sure theyre not too rocky. The kind of music played by a wedding can make all the difference.
Y’know ZK, for some time now, I’ve been suspecting that your screen name was hijacked by someone who is not in the “under 25” slot.
I think I may be right in my hunch
bpt,
ZK has indicated many months ago that she has little kids.
That’s why I think the SN was hijacked (or there are 2 users, on the same acct)
I think that part of the reason for the wayward slide away from the kedusha appropriate for a wedding is that people started going to weddings to have a good time and enjoy THEMSELVES – instead of the challenging mitzvah of being happy TOGETHER with the chosson and kallah.
The choice of music and the way in which it is played greatly influences in which direction a person will channel his/her energies when attending a wedding.
I agree with Goq’s point. It isn’t our job to judge what others do. But while we’re on the subject, I’d like the dancing intro by my wedding to be Enter Sandman.
Really MiddlePath? You’re a Virginia Tech fan?
Hey ZeesKite, if you don’t like the music why don’t you just make your own music?
Sam, nope. Just a metal fan.
“the effect of music even at a young age”
” one doesn’t have to be an elderly personality…to distinguish between music types”
So, I guess when 2nd dance cranks up, you are in the one with earplugs, right?
The velt zugt, “if the music is too loud, you’re up too late”
Oh where, oh where has our ZK gone,
oh where oh where can she be?
Lullabys soft and serenades low
and that’s the way it must be.
Shhh!
ZeesKite: All “Jewish music” was more or less borrowed from contemporary stuff. You want real Jewish music? Listen to Gregorian chants. That’s probably how the Levi’im sang in the Beis Hamikdash.
ZeesKite: You’re not dealing with the issue though. What type of music do you prefer to be played? Who determines what is “overstepping the boundaries” and what isn’t? Is the whole world supposed to go with what you are comfortable with? Music means different things to everyone. Let people who are comfortable and happy with their music be happy with it. They obviously don’t feel like they’re being hurt by it.
ZK- I think I was at that wedding…..na nach!
Together?!? How can they dance together?
ZeesKite: That’s still subjective. Lipa isn’t ashamed to perform in front of Gedolim, but I’m sure you’d be offended/uncomfortable by his music. The Chassan and Kallah dancing together. Interesting. I can’t see an Issur in that, though I definitely see why it would make people uncomfortable. But the day is about them, not you. Let them have their Simcha and just sit down or talk to friends for a few minutes while you’re uncomfortable.
One of the gedolim once gave it to Lipa at a Chasuna.
But a couple isn’t allowed to dance together in public.
as far as i know the chasan and callah can dance together by a mitzvah tanz and thats it
Cheftze: It would obviously depend on what type of dancing it is and it probably also depends on what’s acceptable in the community (and since the wedding is by their invitation, “community” in this case is probably usually defined the by Chassan, Kallah, and their families anyway). But there’s no inherent Issur.
Sam, no inherent issur for a man to dance with his wife in public?!
Cheftze: I clearly said it depends on the dancing. What would the Issur be? If it’s a place where it’s not socially acceptable then it’s an issue (the same as holding hands). A place where it is shouldn’t have an inherent Issur.
My only objection is to the loudness of the music. I never liked it, even when I was in my 20s. I have a friend who told the orchestra that if they did not turn down the volume, she wasn’t paying them. They did, and it really was MUCH more enjoyable.
I ahve a slight hearing problem at this stage of life, so if the music is too loud for ME (And maybe that’s how I developed the hearing problem…), then it is probably WAY to loud for everyone else, especially and including nebbich, the babies whose parents brought them there.
ZK You are very knowledgeable, throwing in pieces of interesting information and trivia from chazal etc in many of your posts. Where’s the mekor for yuval being the inventor of music (in olam hazeh, anyways)?
Zk- yup that is what happened at the wedding I was at.
Btw the chosson isn’t a real na nach at all, he has a lot of friends who are and enjoys the pump, but you’ll never catch him saying nanach.
Sam2- is the halacha any different for a married couple(not choSson and kallah) to dance together at a wedding?
ZK being both knowledgeable and silly are not a paradox. YOU attest to that! Lol
Think first: I would say technically no, but in reality yes. Non-socially acceptable public displays of affection (because a public display of affection is defined by what that society accepts) are not permitted. Thus, a couple probably can’t hold hands in Me’ah Shearim or Williamsburg, but in other places no one would bat an eyelash at it. So at a wedding, where everyone is there by the Chassan and Kallah’s invitation, depending on the community, it’s probably not unheard of that they will hold hands or dance together a little. At the vast majority of weddings though, it is probably very much expected that other married couples not dance together.
ZK,
although I entirley agree with your post, however I do understand that there are perople that are on different levels of yiddishkeit than I am.
there are those that have no problem dancing mixed, they will of course not undertand why you make such a tumol about this issue.
However in our circles (I mean the one that I am in) it is clearly ovious that the chasunas have changed, for the worse. it pains me, expecially since I do know the origin and logic behind most of these ‘songs’ and ‘moves’.
Sam2, a couple holding hands in public is almost unheard of and entirely unacceptable in any frum community. (I dont know much about mo; perhaps some of them do it.) Also, choson / kalla dancing at a wedding (or any couple) is not done, except at a late mitzva tantz.
Stuck: I don’t know where you’re from, but I’ve been in some pretty right-wing communities and spoken to some pretty right-wing people who say that their communities have no problem with holding hands. This could be an NY vs OOT difference though, as I think those I spoke to who didn’t have a problem with it were all not from New York.
Music has different effects. A ‘malchusdik’ march evokes one type of feeling, a ‘dvaikusdik’ nigun, another. This is regardless of whether they may resemble music from other cultures. Unfortunately, most of today’s “Jewish” music has its origins in the jungle, the effect being to make people feel and act like …animals!
And as the ‘baal simcha’ or ‘baalas simcha’ you have the right to tell the musician(s) you employ if you don’t want jungle music, and if you don’t want to be responsible for contributing to the hearing loss of your guests.
Sam, maybe mo. I never saw or heard about any Chareidi community where it is acceptable.
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