Ym”s?

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  • #1572183

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I always thought that you don’t say yemach shemo by Jews (however far or bad they may be) yet on shabbos I was reading rav shach on Chumash and in it he mentioned a reform guy who wanted to take him away from learning and it says yemach shemo

    #1572258

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Maybe it was added into the manuscipts at a later point without rav schachs knowledge.
    Its not un common for insertions and changes made after.

    #1572333

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I highly doubt it but I’ll try to look it up again and get back to you with the exact wording

    #1572363

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Specifics might make a differnece, It might not have been a “Stam reform guy” and might have been someone like Stephen Wise who did nothing while the Jews were killed in Auschwitz and was not a “stam reform rabbi”

    #1572440

    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    The kav hayashar in perek 50 something brings down a story about an apikorsic jew, and said yimach shlomo. I believe.

    #1572529

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Zdad,

    It wasn’t a stam reform guy, the story mentioned his name I just don’t remember it and it was said in relation to a story where he tried to get rav shach to leave Torah (chotei u’machtee?)

    But I remember a story regarding Herzl and one gasoline said ym”s and the other one said you don’t say it for a yid

    #1572552

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    I hate to burst your bubble, but there others who were not reform or conservative who also did nothing while people were sent to aishwitz. But because it wont look good to say it, so we don’t mention it.

    #1572657

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Not gasoline, gadol (stupid autocorrect 🙄)

    #1572666

    YosefSebrow
    Participant

    כָּל הַפּוֹרְשְׁים מִדַּרְכֵי הַצִּבּוּר, וְהֵם הָאֲנָשִׁים שֶׁפָּרְקוּ עֹל הַמִצְוֹת מֵעַל צַוָּארָם, וְאֵין נִכְלָלִים בִּכְלַל יִשְֹרָאֵל בַּעֲשִׂיָתָם, אֶלָּא הֲרֵי הֵם כִּבְנֵי חוֹרִין לְעַצְמָן, וְכֵן הַמּוּמָרִים וְהַמּוֹסְרִים וְהָאֶפִּיקוֹרְסִים, כָּל אֵלּוּ, אֵין אוֹנְנִים וְאֵין מִתְאַבְּלִים עֲלֵיהֶם, אֶלָּא אֲחֵיהֶם ושְׁאָר קְרוֹבֵיהֶם לוֹבְשִׁים לְבָנִים וּמִתְעַטְּפִים לְבָנִים, וְאוֹכְלִים וְשוֹתִים וּשְׂמֵחִים עַל שֶׁאִבְּדוּ שׂוֹנְאוֹ שֶׁל מָקוֹם. וַעֲלֵיהֶם הַכָּתוּב אוֹמֵר, הֲלֹּא מְשַׂנְאֶיךָ ה’, אֶשְׂנָא. וְאוֹמֵר, וּבַאֲבֹד רְשָׁעִים רִנָּה. (יו”ד סימן שמ”ה).

    All those who separate themselves from the ways of the community, such as those people who have cast off the yoke of mitzvos from themselves, and do not include themselves among the Jewish people with regard to observance of the mitzvos, but are like a liberated sect of their own; for all these, including apostates, informers, and heretics, the laws of Onein are not observed, and their death is not mourned. Their brothers and other relatives dress in white and adorn themselves in white, eat, drink, and rejoice that the enemies of the Almighty have perished. Concerning such people, the Scripture says,4 “Behold those who hate you Adonoy, I hate” also it is said, “When the wicked perish there is joy.”5

    #1572825

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Yosef,

    Just because they aren’t mourned means that they should be blotted out?

    #1572765

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Stephen Wise was actually in a position to actually do something (He was one of the few jews who had access to Roosevelt) , unlike most people who really were powerless, even among the Reform his legacy was tainted for his inaction.

    Hertzel is not the same as someone who tried to get Rav Shach to leave the Beis Medrash. Its unlikley there would be much torah learning in Israel without him (Even if he didnt intend it to be that way), While todays Israel is not what he probably intended he did plant the seed and put it on the political map (Getting it on the required help from Foreign governments)

    #1572984

    GAON
    Participant

    “But I remember a story regarding Herzl and one gadol said ym”s and the other one said you don’t say it for a yid”

    And on the other hand, I know some who did say YMS on Hertzel, so it is no comparison when speaking of two diff Gadolim each had a diff cutoff line, who and what they would use that term.

    Unlike other Zionists, Hertzel did not even care about Israel he was fine with Uganda..

    Rav Baruch Ber of Kamitetz refrained from even mentioning him by his name.

    #1572927

    Avi K
    Participant

    1. Rav Sonnenfeld, the Ponevicher Rav and the Chazan Ish all vehemently prohibited saying it about a Jew, even a mumar. The proof is that if a mumar dies childless his wife needs either chalitza or yibum (SA EH 157:5) – and that continues his name.

    2. יורה דעה ס’ שמ סע’ סעיף ה
    העומד בשעת יציאת נשמה של איש או אשה מישראל חייב לקרוע. (טור בשם רמב”ן וב”י אף לדעת רש”י) ואפילו אם לפעמים עשה עבירה לתיאבון או שמניח לעשות מצוה בשביל טורח.

    הגה: אבל רגיל לעשות עבירה אין מתאבלין עליו (מרדכי סוף מ”ק) וכל שכן על מומר לעבודת כוכבים (שם ופוסקים וכן מוכח מש”ס פי’ נגמר הדין וכמה דוכתי) וי”א שמומר שנהרג בידי עובד כוכבים מתאבלים עליו (הגהת אשיר”י פרק א”מ וא”ז) וכן מומר קטן שהמיר עם אביו או אמו דהוי כאנוס (מרדכי ה”א בשם ר”י ומביאו ב”י סימן שמ”ה) וי”א דאין מתאבלין וכן עיקר (שם בשם ר”ת). הפורשים מדרכי צבור אע”פ שאין מתאבלין עליהם מתאבלין על בניהם (א”ז) (ועיין לקמן סימן שמ”ה).

    Thus we certainly mourn those who were raised in non-observant homes.

    3. Rav Kook explains that there are two parts to being a poresh midarchei tzibbor:
    a. Not keeping mitzvot.
    b. Not wanting to be considered a Jew

    Today’s secular Jews consider being called non-Jews fighting words so they are not in this category.

    #1573074

    YosefSebrow
    Participant

    Mods, I know you can’t allow this link and will edit this post, but please confirm in the modified post that the deleted video link was a Video of Rav Steinman zt”l saying “Lapid Yemach shemo”. thanks.

    Confirmed -100

    #1574200

    GAON
    Participant

    Yosef,

    Thanks! and here is a link that will surely go though : )

    Maran Rav Shteinman Shlita: Lapid, Yemach Shemo!

    #1574388

    beisyosef
    Participant

    The mishna in yoma (perek 3 mishna 11) has a list of a bunch of ppl that didn’t want to teach secrets in Torah and it says that on them you say “Shem reshaim yirkav” (the names of the evil shall rot). That’s on ppl that didn’t want to teach, Kal vachomer on a reform person spreading heresy and trying to take him away from learning!

    #1574444

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Thank you gaon and yosefsebrow,

    I’m thinking maybe the thing where you don’t say ym”s by Jews is only when they are stam reshaim but if they are meisis u’madiach then you could say it (and halachicly their wives wouldn’t get yibum)

    Just a thought

    #1574453

    Avi K
    Participant

    G, Rav Shteinman was obviously not feeling well. In any case, he is a daat yachid.

    BY, we do not pasken directly from a mishna. Sometimes there are contradictory mishnayot. Sometimes it is not l’halacha.

    CA, please cite your source.

    #1574592

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Avi,

    My source for what comment?

    #1574486

    GAON
    Participant

    Coffee,

    There are many that uphold that a Mumar does not need Chalitzan as we say he is not considered אחיו. The ones that argue, i recall, say that we are חושש שמע הרהור בתשובה. Thus, one who is a מחטיא and has an agenda to uproot yehadus might be in a diff status.

    #1574606

    GAON
    Participant

    Avi,

    “‘Rav Shteinman was obviously not feeling well. ”

    Why? He made more important decisions at that time for the Klal than others do in a life time! His mind was crystal clear until the last days. Especially he was extremely careful about every word uttered. If it was ASSUR it wouldn’t even cross his mind to say so. Thus, not “feeling well” is a way out…

    “In any case, he is a daat yachid.”

    Who decided that the “rabim” holds the other way, just because one quoted a couple of Gadolim saying something does not mean it is final, nor can it be applied to every case.

    #1574617

    laskern
    Participant

    There is a difference between מומר לתאבון an otd from desire and מומר להכעיס and an otd to anger. An otd to anger passes his non-beliefs to his children whereas an otd from desire will not. An otd from desire will repent when the age of desire is gone, whereas the otd to anger will never repent. I would say that otd to anger will be a מסית ומדיח, someone who makes others sin, and can be called Ym”s.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  laskern.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  laskern.
    #1574623

    Avi K
    Participant

    G, he was obviously not feeling well at all. The fact of the matter is that in those circles the askanim make the decisions and manipulate the gedolim. According to Rav Simcha Kook Gafni lied to Rav Eliashiv to get him to approve joining Sharon’s coalition. Rav Kaminetzky even wrote in a letter to someone that he signs what his rabbanim recommend. Another possibility is that being that Lapid does not have brothers (only two sisters) the proof of yibum falls away.

    Laskern, so what? Where does it say that there is no yibum for a mumar l’chachis?

    #1574625

    GAON
    Participant

    las,

    Do we apply those dff regarding Yibum?. I know the Chasam Sofer does mention some differences regarding a Meshumad or one that is just Mechalel Shabbos.

    See the above Shu”T Chelek A”H Vol 1 siman 57, and Vol 2 – 83.

    On the same note, many mention Shabtai Tzvi YM”S or SR”Y.
    So there is definitely a cutoff line.

    #1574629

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Correct gaon,

    That is my maskana

    #1574640

    GAON
    Participant

    “Another possibility is that being that Lapid does not have brothers (only two sisters) the proof of yibum falls away””

    Avi,

    what does that “technical” issue have to do with the actual proof that a Mumar has no status of a Jew.

    Also, do you agree that “Shabtai Tzvi YM”S” is appropriate, according to your understanding..?

    #1574666

    laskern
    Participant

    What is this about yibbum, when currently there is no yibbum but chalitza?

    #1574682

    gavriel613
    Participant

    From my notes on the Ramban ויקרא פ”ג ט ד”ה חלבו

    Loshon of Ramban:
    ו”והוצרכתי להאריך בזה, לסתום פיהם של צדוקים ימחה שמם. כי בדברי תורה נאמר ענה כסיל כאולתו”.

    My note:
    הנה מש”כ רבינו לש’ “ימחה שמם” על הצדוקים, מקור לש’ זה בתהלים קט יג, וברש”י שם פסוק ב’ פי’ דקאי אעשו. וראיתי בשם האבני נזר ז”ל [עי שו”ת משנה הלכות ח”ו כח] שאין לומר לשון זה על ישראל, ואמר שהרי אם ימות הרי דין המשומד שאשתו חייבת ביבום שנא’ ולא ימח שמו מישראל, וכמדומני שדברים כאלה מיוחסים גם למהרי”ל דיסקין בספר השרף מבריסק.
    אמנם מלש’ רבינו כאן מבואר שניתן לומר כן על ישראל אפיקורס, וע”ע רמב”ן פר’ אחרי מות טז כט שכ’ על הקראים “מחוקי שם”.
    ואולי צדוקים חמירי שמא יגררו אחריהם, א”נ הכוונה על הכת של צדוקים שיכלו לא על כל צדוקי, שגם אם יעשו כולם תשובה הרי זה מחיית שם כת הצדוקים. וע’ רד”ק תהילים שם פסוק ו ומלבים פסוק א שפי’ דקאי הפרק אדואג האדומי

    #1574701

    GAON
    Participant

    las ,
    Yibum = Chalitza
    if there is no Chiyuv of Yibum then there is no Chlitza.

    #1574769

    Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman said yemach Shmo on Trotsky
    ,it seems

    The same Leon Trotsky who upon being expelled from the Soviet Union was beseeched by the socialist labour movement of Palestine (including the younger Ben Gurion)to come and lead them.
    (He dismissed their petition with derision)

    #1574768

    Was told by a gentle old Jew a”h that he himself asked in the ’50s, whether ’twas proper to say Yemach Shmo on Herzl (or was it Ben Gurion) and he was told Yes! albeit it ill advised to say publicly
    The ‘gentle’ old Jew was an old fragile Novardiker who told this to us at a Shabbos table in Yerushalayim. He personally asked the Chazon Ish

    #1574876

    Avi K
    Participant

    G. who says that a mumar has no status as a Jew? For example, you still cannot charge him interest.

    Laskern, who says there is no yibum? First of all, Sephardim do not worry about Abba shaul’s statement. Secondly, if an Ashkenazi would want to do it and the widow agrees no one can do anything. No ceremony or document (b’diavad) is necessary.

    It,
    1.I find that hard to believe as BG hated the communists and even the pinko Mapam. In fact, he wanted to outlaw the former (Begin stopped him, even though he hated them even more, because he was a liberal democrat) and refused to allow the latter in any coalition (“lo Herut v’lo Mapam).
    2. That contradicts what the CI is known to have paskened. Apparently this gentle, old Jew’s memory was not what it was.

    #1574961

    There is a difference between mumar L’taavon And L’chach’is

    though for politicians often is it both

    #1574959

    BG originally was a communist , though the term was still broad
    His visit to Moscow in 1923 began his slow slide away from it
    Katznelson,who had a major dislike for Stalinism,influenced him further [as well as many of the others ].
    BG through his channels suspected that many of the MAPAM were being marionetted from Moscow
    (Some were even on the payroll)

    #1575086

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    To put Trotsky and Ben Gurion in the same sentance is laughable

    #1575128

    liberal democrat

    the term should explained better for an Americans
    As in early twenty century Britain or Germany

    This is becoming a distraction

    #1575155

    GAON
    Participant

    “The same Leon Trotsky who upon being expelled from the Soviet Union was beseeched by the socialist labour movement of Palestine ”

    What exactly does it matter? It does not mean that anyone had in mind that they will abide to all his ideas. Trotsky was brilliant, popular with connections and, had many skills that could have helped them.
    They weren’t exactly looking for a Rosh Yeshivah…

    He obviously OPPOSED the Stalinist idea but was a Marxist.

    #1576466

    icemelter
    Participant

    Some say Ym”s about gedolim. Which is pretty sad. Also some say that certain gedolim were too old and their mind wasn’t working well. Also sad.

    #1576556

    Avi K
    Participant

    Icemelter, if you are referring to me I did not say that his mind was not working well. I said that he was not feeling well. BTW, the Gemara says that towards the end Rabbi Elazar ben Arach’s mind was not working well for a time (Shabbat 147b).

    #1576565

    icemelter
    Participant

    @avi- no I wasn’t referring to you. As far as the ym”s of gedoilim, I was referring to a certain group who casually says it regarding a few litvishe gedoilim but I cannot mention them since the post will not go through. Also within that same group, there was a “rabbi” who wrote a negative piece on Rav Shteinman zt”l, and referenced those terms such as old or mind not clear ch”v.

    I actually tried posting excerpts of the article along with links to prove the validation of my post, but it was not approved by the mods. So you’ll just have to do your own research.

    edited 

    #1576566

    icemelter,
    For some of those,that should be the worst they say

    #1576623

    icemelter
    Participant

    @It’s time- uh I guess? I mean that’s pretty bad but whatever. I mean I would think you shouldn’t say it on gedoilim it seems counterintuitive. Also my post was put out in full not sure what was edited about it? Why write edit but post the original post in full as if I said something wrong lol

    There was a section that was edited out that served no purpose other than to rehash things I already deleted in the other posts. And you are right, it was so not relevant to that post that you don’t even know it’s missing. – 29

    #1576624

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Icemelter,

    Are you talking about a ponevezher?

    #1576931

    GAON
    Participant

    On the same note, it is worthy to post what was publicized last week in the Gilyon attributed to Rav Chaim Kanievsky Shlita ‘Divre Si”ach:

    בימים אחרונים נכנס אל רבינו אחד מהאחראים בהנהלת בית החיים (בית הקברות) בבני ברק, להתייעץ על דבר מסוים. בתוך הדברים הוא סיפר לו על דבר מאוד מעניין

    . לדבריו, כמעט מידי יום מגיעים אל קברו של מרן ראש הישיבה הגראי”ל שטינמן זצוק”ל אנשים מהרבה גוונים, ומשתטחים על קברו ומבקשים מחילה על שפגעו בו, הוא הוסיף לספר כי פעמים רבות באים אנשים ומבקשים מהאנשים שבסביבה שיבואו כדי להשלים מנין אנשים, ובפניהם הם מבקשים מחילה, וכך הוא עצמו היה הרבה פעמים במעמדות שכאלה

    . באחד הימים – כך מספר אותו אחראי, הוא השתתף במעמד מחילה שכזה, והאיש פרץ בבכי וסיפר לנוכחים שהוא דיבר כמה פעמים שלא בכבוד על מרן זצוק”ל, והוא מרגיש היטיב את יד ה’ וכי נתקיים בו דברי חז”ל כל המבזה תלמיד חכם אין לו רפואה למכתו, והלוואי והקב”ה יאמר לצרותיו די.

    והמספר שאל את מרן שליט”א, האם אפשר לצרף למנין נשים, וענה מרן שלא, והסביר שבד”כ המנהג אחרי שנמצאים על הקבר שאומרים איזה פרק תהילים ואח”כ קדיש לע”נ ונשים לא יוכלו להצטרף לקדיש, לכן צריך י’ גברים כדי שיוכלו לומר קדיש. והורה רבינו עוד, שבבקשת המחילה צריכים לומר בדיוק את השם המדויק בן אביו, של אותו שמבקשים ממנו מחילה, אבל אין צריך לומר תארי הכבוד (ואמר שזה אחד הסיבות שרושמים את כל השמות שיש לאדם על המציבה, כי מהדין מספיק לשים מציבה בעלמא ומה שכותבים בדיוק שמו המלא ובן אביו כדי שיוכלו להזכיר שמו בתפילה כראוי(.

    #1576858

    icemelter
    Participant

    @-29 when I reposted I did not “rehash” anything so nothing was missing it wasn’t just a feeling that something was missing. I think your confusing the previous post with the latest post which had no links. Besides if I give you sources and links I’m not sure what you gain by censoring the truth unless you are owned by one of their websites and are scared of them which is what seems to be the case. Good job feeding into their agenda. When there are problems there is a need to point things out, you allow worse comments to go through which half of them aren’t even true and are only brought upon by hate. But when someone actually points out negative truths with sources to back it up you censor them. Interesting. -29 you seem to be very biased and also trying to frame people to look bad by putting in you false “edit” comments in green or any other color. Way to go does it make you feel big about yourself? Nice.

    There was no link, I took out some hateful comments so that I wouldn’t have to delete the whole post. The “negative truths” are not what are being edited, the accompanying hateful commentary that accompany them are not postable. Feel free to stick to objectivity if you would like your posts posted. Otherwise continue ignoring all the warnings you continue to get and they will just be deleted. (I used orange because it definitely makes me feel bigger than green) – 29

    @coffeeaddict- yes but not only, there are other rabbis that they use that term about (BMG past and present generation) and others, ch”v and it is shocking how casually they say it and with such a belief that they feel they are doing a mitzvah by saying that about litvish gedoilim. But it seems ywn agrees with them is anyone missing something here? Why would I mention this if it didn’t bother me? Is this accepted by anyone besides that group to say such horrific things about big Rabbonim? Especially when you orrwch to the world about how much you “accept” everyone? Ywn if your think this causes strife I suggest you look elsewhere to compare. And if it doesn’t bother you how people talk about tzaddikim then we have a different issue.

    #1576941

    ZionGate
    Participant

    …. They also point to Uganda as an example that Herzl didn’t care about Eretz Yisroel…
    Did THEY?
    They didn’t even propose Uganda or Iceland or even Treifene America…. But to stay where they were despite the ominous black clouds…

    #1576939

    ZionGate
    Participant

    GAON writes :
    “Unlike other Zionists, Hertzel did not even care about Israel he was fine with Uganda..”

    This is a half-truth perpetuated by anti- Herzl and anti- Zionists.
    Herzl cared deeply about the plight of Jews especially after he watched brutal pogroms decimate Jewish communities. He was all in for Eretz Yisroel.. But at a point when he & some members of the Zionist Congress were frustrated by the British & Ottoman Turks because they quashed hopes for that to happen.
    So he TEMPORARILY agreed to explore the Ugandan & Argentinian options..
    He worked tirelessly for his people, had the support of even many orthodox rabbis and tried to alleviate their suffering….
    I’m still trying to get info on what the Herzl haters did to help fellow suffering Jews..
    Was there a Yom Iyun, Tefillah, fast day (s) to help? Or was “Shev V’al Taaseh” the word?

    Takes2-2tango:
    “I hate to burst your bubble, but there others who were not reform or conservative who also did nothing while people were sent to aishwitz. But because it wont look good to say it, so we don’t mention it.”

    Understatement… Understatement…Understatement..

    Let’s not get started on this because the MODS are sure to stop some comments from going through..

    jealous?

    #1577137

    GAON
    Participant

    “Herzl cared deeply about the plight of Jews especially after he watched brutal pogroms decimate Jewish communities.”

    No one denied that part, the point is, he had NO feelings toward anything of Judaism or anything linked to the Torah. Many Zionists (though secular) were inspired by the return to Israel, as our long awaited Home Land. Theodor Herzl NOT.

    Do not make him into any hero, other than he was inspired as an Austrian journalist by the J’accuse of the Dreyfus Affair looking to end the antisemitism problem. His idea until then was to assimilate/integrate with the Europeans, nor did he raise any of his children with any feelings toward Jewishness (do your own research, regarding his offspring’s).

    Regarding Auschwitz, the Mapai Zionists are either not innocent…

    #1576969

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Re: ” …. jealous?….”
    LOL, in GREEN, yet….

    #1577555

    ZionGate
    Participant

    “….Do not make him into any hero….”
    Oh, he’s absolutely a hero…. He came from an assimilated home, the stuff you write happened early before he awakened to Jewish feelings, and started a return to Judaism and died much too young.
    You’re telling a very early chapter in his life and ignoring the rest.
    Apparently, you didn’t read much about him, but are presenting the stale anti-Herzl
    propaganda from the usual suspicious sources.

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