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I don’t think it’s a coincidence that HKBH orchestrated events that Yom Haatzmaut falls out during the time period where we’re supposed to doing self reflection and fixing the terrible crime of not treating one another with respect. Vehameivin yavin.
To Simcha613
You’re correct, but if you follow most of the posters, and really most people, frum and otherwise, they’re convinced that they’re perfect and would never consider anything to the contrary. So no, they don’t view the Sefira as a period of reflection, rather it’s to criticize others.
We mourn on this day and c”v do not listen to music or make weddings.
To simcha613
ujm is a Jewish antisemite who dreams of the destruction of the State of Israel and the death of its Jewish residents. And he justifies this position because his Rav, Rabbi Miller was anti-Zionism.
Simcha: I always get a chuckle when a non-Orthodox Jew who attends a Reform Temple, like qwerty613, calls Torah Jews antisemites and lies about their positions. The inversion is ironic.
@simcha613:
The Zionists – even “religious” ones – celebrate and party on that invented “holiday” despite it falling out during sefirah.
The Chazon Ish stated that the day should really be a Tish’ah BiAv.
@qwerty613:
No frum Jews – not even NK – have ever advocated for the death of the Jews in the Zionist paradise. Your comment is disgraceful.HaKatan said:
“The Chazon Ish stated that the day should really be a Tish’ah BiAv.”
__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:I have no evidence that he really said that.
If he did say that, then in what year did say that?
The Chazon Ish died in 1953 CE,
when the State of Israel was 5 YEARS OLD.1953 CE was 73 years ago. Since then, many things have changed.
Changes that HaKatan & UJM refuse to acknowledge, because they prefer to hate.
To Hakatan
What do they ask for?
To ujm
Yes, and the two Rabbis of the Temple are Rabbi Plutchok and Rabbi Fishelis. Which Nazi is the head of your shul?
two ideas:
1) it is entirely possible that two things hold true: 1.1) foundation of Israel is a great thing, 1.2) the way it is celebrated is not right.2) it may be not yom haatzmaut has a problem, but sefirah?
indeed, the most popular version – fist 33 days – clashes with yom tov and month of nissan.you’re missing the point BECAUSE you are not part of Am Yisroel.
The Torah demands we Jews love every member of klal yisroel and hate every rebel that is out, regardless of their name, “notrzi” “reform” “dati leumi” or whatever.
Fundamental to your zionism is the idea that we are all – chilonim, notrzrim, reformim, mesoratim, and (lehavdil) yiddin – one single group and we just have different lifestyles or a plurality of viewpoints.
But, no. Torah Judaism rejects all other religions, especially the “av ha teema” called “religious zionism”. We are not “one nation”, we fully reject any connection with those who claim that the zionist state is “Jewish”. We pray for their destruction and downfall three times a day, as per the established prayers of anshei kenses hagedola.
We hate those who hate Hashem because the Torah tells us to.
Since then, the disaster for Jews that is that idol has grown infinitely worse.
For example, back then, the yeshiva students at least had some legal framework to remain Jews and learn in yeshiva, unlike now.
Since then, the heretics have shmaded multiple generations of Jews, probably numbering in the millions.But you know all this and, unlike your projection accusation (false as always), you wish to worship the idol.
@qwerty613:
However G-d chooses to handle putting an end to the nightmare of that idol without the loss of any Jewish life at all.
@simcha613:
People also believe in trees and cows. They are worshiping idols. Same here.
It was very much non-miraculous, and monumental in only the opposite way: as in the greatest triumph of the satan since the sin of the golden calf, as per the Brisker Rav.Again, as Rav Elchonon and the others put it, Zionism is idolatry and “Religious Zionism” is idolatry and religion together. That is the reality. Should we pity a brainwashed “Religious Zionist” due to that brainwashing and not hate them? Of course; nobody suggested otherwise. But the Torah cannot be adulterated.
In case it still isn’t clear, what would your reaction be if someone tried to claim that the reason that Easter Sunday falls out on Pesach is whatever? The answer is that Easter Sunday is not relevant to my religion, so the question simply doesn’t start. Same here.
“two ideas:
1) it is entirely possible that two things hold true: 1.1) foundation of Israel is a great thing…”In the Jewish religion, that isn’t at all possible. The founding of the “State” was a violation of the entire Torah (as per the Brisker Rav) and obviously of the Oaths (which the idolaters have obviously never managed to explain away). It also has shmaded untold numbers of Jews and on and on and on. It also prevented (and is preventing, according to some) Mashiach from coming. And on and on.
Mathematically if all the Torah Jews in Israel would vote, and all the Torah jews of the world come to Israel and vote, they would be hands down the largest and ruling party. Hence in this day and age no matter what the original founders of the state had in mind it is the Torah Jews in Israel who refuse to vote and the Torah Jews of the world who refuse to move to Israel and vote who are solely responsible for the continued secular rule in the state of Israel. In this day and age all the problems of the anti state of Israel Torah Jews are mostly self inflicted.
qwerty,
The head of Joseph Goebbels’ pagan temple is “Harav Yitzchok Ehrentreu”. If you’ve never heard of him that’s because our resident Nazi fabricated him, just like all of the garbage he posts.
To GadolHadofi
His fellow Sonei Yisrael Hakatan, stated that he davens for Hashem to eliminate the State of Israel, but not to harm any Jews. Let’s examine that line. Hitler yms said that the Jews are responsible for all the evils of the world and they must be eliminated. He then followed up on his belief. Hakatan and ujm say that Zionism is responsible for all the evils of the world and it must be eliminated, but then he says that he doesn’t want any Jew to be harmed. At least Hitler wasn’t a lying hypocrite. It’s shocking that monsters like ujm and Hakatan can mention Hashem.
unfortunately you’ve drunk the kool-aid of zionism and you sound just like @rescue defending humanism or every secular chazer-fresser defending reform.
the idolatry of zionism has very little to do with the gemara of shulosh shevios, rather that is just one of the many starting points. this is like saying the whole issue of xitianity is about whether yashke was from beis duvid or not.
but, like “jews for j”, your zionist leaders will tell you that all the tears and mesiras nefesh from gedolim of past was simply a machlokes of shitos, and that their criticisms were against the secular, not the religious. Nonetheless, those gedolim where very explicit that this has nothing to do with shitos or machlokes (in Torah) and the focused targets and war those gedolim waged were explicitly against the priests teaching “religious zionism”.
To simcha613
You’re one of the good ones and you’re also intelligent enough to understand that there’s no way to get through to those who have created a wall of hate. I’m reminded of something I read many years ago. There were German and Austrian Jews who were taken to the camps, and they displayed the medals that they earned in WWI hoping that this would gain them their freedom. Obviously, the guards weren’t impressed. Nothing can be said to our resident Nazis, Hakatan and ujm, that will make any indentation. They’ve distilled the Torah into hating anything related to Israel. And as for rescue, he’s also severely disturbed, but he’s more nasty than hate filled.
katan> Again, as Rav Elchonon and the others put it, Z
could you do us a favor – you already enlightened us about view of R Elchonon. He is a respected T’Ch surely, student of Chofetz Chaim, tragically killed by Nazis when he stood up for his principles and stayed by his students … still, would be nice if you can quote, say, R Feinstein, Chofetz Chaim, Hazon Ish, R Soloveitchik other rabbis of different shitot.
duvid> Mathematically if all the Torah Jews in Israel would vote, and all the Torah jews of the world come to Israel and vote, they would be hands down the largest and ruling party.
this is very aspirational… but what if all form different parties and start fighting with each other for power and subsidies? if say, “chasidim” and “misnagdim” both get 40% of the vote, are you sure one or both of the groups not join with “hilonim and “aravim” against the other?
@qwerty613:
It is you and your idol that are the definition of “sonei yisrael”. The Torah is the life-force of Jews, and your idol has been trying to destroy the Torah for over a century.The Brisker Rav stated that he (and everyone) prays thrice daily for the (peaceful) elimination of the idol, which is the viLaMalshinim prayer in 18. If you have a problem with that, you can take it up with him.
Your “examination” and calling others “nazis” is beyond absurd (and perhaps somewhat of a projection, but only Hashem knows).
Just drop the idol already and stop falsely accusing people and writing nonsense. Just acknowledge that the only power is Hashem and that He does not need anything to help Him and His children, not even your idol.
Those who are mourning on Yom Haatzmaut, like UJM and Hakatan, are true to their Islamic religion which mourns the Jewish victories over genocidal Arab Islamo-Nazis.
No doubt Arafat and company also mourned on Yom Haatzmaut.
The very goyish invented “religion” of UJM, Hakatan, and co. prohibits music during sefirah, but there is nothing in the Talmud, Rambam, or Shulchan Aruch about music being prohibited during the sefirah days.
The very goyish invented “religion” of UJM, Hakatan, and co. also prohibits creation of a Jewish state before Moshiach, but there is nothing in the Talmud, Rambam or Shulchan Aruch prohibiting creation of a Jewish state before we have a Moshiach.
UJM, Hakatan, and the N.K. gang are forced to invent a polytheistic replacement theology, where a “Satan” runs the world, in order to erase this mitzvah from the Torah:
“וְהוֹרַשְׁתֶּ֥ם אֶת־הָאָ֖רֶץ וִֽישַׁבְתֶּם־בָּ֑הּ כִּ֥י לָכֶ֛ם נָתַ֥תִּי אֶת־הָאָ֖רֶץ לָרֶ֥שֶׁת אֹתָֽהּ׃
And you shall take possession of the land and settle in it, for I have assigned the land to you to possess.
” (BaMidbar 33:53)The miraculous military victories Israel has achieved with the help of Hashem do deserve a day of celebration.
To RightJew
I certainly concur with everything you said, but AFAIK music is prohibited during Sefira. Please elucidate.
To Simcha613
As I stated, you are clearly a Mensch, as am I and so I will respond in a civil manner. Today, Hakatan said to me, “It is you and your idol that are the definition of sonei Yisrael.” And the other day ujm called me a Mechallel Shabbos who prays in a Reform Temple. When I make statements, they are well thought out. I have consistently called rescue an atheist because that’s what he is, and that’s what he’s espousing. Now it’s telling that you addressed your comment to me and not Hakatan. The reason is obvious, you know that I’m rational and he isn’t. If you tried to get him to tone down his rhetoric, he’ll respond as he did to me. Sorry, you’re giving them the benefit of the doubt, but the fact remains that they are incorrigible. There is no hope for idolaters of any type. I’m not pushing you off, because you clearly have a Lev Tov, but these animals must be treated as such.
HaKatan:
No offense intended, sir, but with all due respect, you are disconnected from reality.
You are NOT LISTENING to the comments made in this Coffee Room.
A wise man once said, because it is true, that:
“You can ignore reality, but you cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.”
@SQUARE_ROOT
With all due respect, it is the Zionist idolaters, including those who quote nebulous Artscroll quotes from 70 years ago, that are “disconnected from reality”.Zionist shmad is very real, and it is idolatry and heresy, as all the gedolim noted.
As you quoted, “You can ignore reality, but you cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.”To SQUARE_ROOT
After you straighten out Hakatan, you can convince Lubavichers that the Rebbe isn’t Moshiach. We’re talking about full-fledged idolaters. By definition, they can’t be reached. They’ve all crossed the fiftieth level of Tumah but they think it’s a joke because Schneerson told them that he’s going to save every Jew.
simcha> They believe their position is Ratzon Hashem and what’s best for Klal Yisroel.
putting aside the cursing that some other people also do, they are not demonstrating intellectual honesty that is required for a kosher point of view. They continuously quote several rabonim and pretend that everyone else thinks the same. It may be that some of them read some secondary seforim that provide the “analysis” they are putting out here, so they are not directly responsible for non-sequiturs, just being mislead. This is the best letzad shut I can come up with.
To simcha613
I usually don’t get involved in threads involving Zionism, because the NK supporters come out and there’s no point in arguing with them. All that happens is that it leads to name calling.
AAQ:
It is the idolater that are dishonest. No, there is no dissenting rabbinical opinion, certainly not on the level of Rav Elchonon, the Brisker Rav, the Chazon Ish, the Imrei Emes and the rest.Only an idolater could try to claim there is any rabbinical permit to that (or any other) idol which has as its goal the destruction of the Torah and replacement of Judaism with Zionism. That should be obvious even in theory, but is all the more obvious if you simply follow the news and the cataclysmic damage the heretics have done to Judaism and Jews.
> After you straighten out Hakatan, you can convince Lubavichers that the Rebbe isn’t Moshiach.
funny! and after that come here and help any of us to change one middah and make this place more pleasant …
AAQ> … still, would be nice if you can quote, say, R Feinstein, Chofetz Chaim, Hazon Ish, R Soloveitchik other rabbis of different shitot.
Katan> No, there is no dissenting rabbinical opinion,thanks for your answer.
I am not a talmid chacham or a poseik- just an older zaidy with terminal cancer who davens that I will live long enough to be zocheh to count sfirah again next year.
I think most of you who have enteted comments here have forgotten WHY we are noheig aveilus during sefira, or at least why the talmidim of Rebbi Akiva died. It was because they lacked kavod for one another! I think some of you who have written here could teach Rebbi Akiva’s talmidim a thing or two about how to attack one another with a lack of kavod! Shame on you!amosak, exactly! refuah shleimah.
Hakatan ujm and somjew, your opinions are despicable. Literally writing off half of the Torah observant Jewish population as a different religion or idol worshipers.
People today are so misguided. When you look at what the goyim believe in today, it makes so little sense that we feel like we’re in a twilight zone. The way I see it is that Hashem has blinded them to the obvious, but once He reveals himself it’ll be so easy to reverse course from their ridiculous potions, everything will be clear as day.
But you guys, who have taken your Hashkafa to unimaginable, equally ridiculous and backward, levels. Who continuously disgrace half of am Yisrael every single day, will have a very hard time adjusting to the reality that those people you thought weren’t even Jewish in fact may be offering your korbanot for you in the Bet Hamikdash!
You’ll never have imagined that someone who considered themselves a Zionist pre mashiach may be teaching the laws of tumah v’tahara to YOUR children.
For Hashems sake would you quit calling me a goy and oved avoda zara because I don’t think like you or I follow Rabbis that you don’t on a hashkafic point that has nothing to do with Halacha. It’s literally sickening. You don’t realize how gross it is to open a thread during th Omer and read the things you’re writing here. The vast majority of Jews would find your words outrageous and completely oblivious to concepts of shalom and ahdut.
The worst part, that all this is wasted words. You’re all so thick headed, for years and years the same thing over and over. Hashem yishmor. Enough will never be enough with you people.
To user176
Actually, you understate their level of depravity. They consider every Jew living in Isarael except for the handful who carry Palestinian flags the enemy. In addition, they consider all Jews in Chutz Laaretz who refuse to denounce the state as Zionist idolaters. What follows is that they only believe that a few hundred Jews in the world are Kosher. As the Gemara says, “It’s an upside-down world.”
It’s a shame that you are more interested in attacking the messenger than learning the Torah being taught.
You sound like a reform when asked why don’t keep shabbos and told that breaking shabbos means they are no longer part of klal yisroel. “most jewsteins would find that statement of chazal abhorrent!”
yet you still wonder why the cries of gedolim have always been specifically against the “religious” branding of zionism, now known as “dati leumi” or “dati yashkeee” or “chashmonaiyeee!
User176
They point fingers at everybody else and call everybody “pick and choose”
When they pick and choose themselves.
Ignore them. They have no brainsSomejew, don’t justify your absurdity. Dont compare not keeping Shabbat to believing that the establishment of the State of Israel was a gift from Hashem. You are the epitome of sinat hinam. Dont compare statements of ame haaretz who are brainwashed by their culture and surroundings to well grounded Torah based appreciation to Hashem for the kindness that is Medinat Yisrael. YOUR Torah is not THE Torah. In fact, your attitude towards other Jews is not Torah at all, it’s the antithesis of Torah, vile hatred for no good reason. I sincerely hope that everything you write here in an exaggeration. Let me be clear: I’m not telling you that anti Zionism is wrong. I’m telling you that saying that anti Zionism is a requirement to be considered a Torah Jew is blasphemous.
I learned an amazing gemera recently in masechet pesachim that discussed that some were noheg to light candles on erev Yom Kippur and some weren’t. The Gemara says that although they had opposite minhagim, the purpose of each Minhag was for the same ultimate intention. As the passuk says, “V’amech kulam tzadikim.”Ayen sham.
I think this is an an excellent example of taking a step back to realize that there can be different ways of looking at things. Two groups can have the same goal and do opposite actions to arrive at that goal, and they’re both right.
would you agree that being “anti-yashke” is a “requirement to be considered a Torah Jew”?
i’m not sure how you will answer, so please explain why yes or no (according to your religion). If you say “it’s nuanced”, please explain that nuance specifically.
user> I’m telling you that saying that anti Zionism is a requirement to be considered a Torah Jew
It is not just the intolerance itself that it is a problem, but underlying intellectual approach. In order to support this position, these people continue quoting several rabbonim they “chose” to follow (they simple selected rabonim who fit their views, of course) and disregard not just pro-zionist T’Ch (that could be forgiven as a partisan weakness), but even vast number of rabbonim who are not pro-Z but are reasonably tolerant at various levels. So, this is bizayon of majority of Torah in our, and previous, generation.
Somejew, I’m curious to know your definition of Zionist.
Somejew, I’m curious to know your definition of a Zionist.
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