April 15, 2013 2:17 am at 2:17 am #946967besalelParticipant
I have found the following to be a good general rule: unless you are a satmar, an anti-zionist is an anti-semite. The holy Rav rabbi Yoel Teitlebaum had a certain shita and certainly we are all smaller than he was to be choylek on him. but if you are not satmar and do not hold by his ways and you are anti-zionst, then you are certainly an anti-semite whether or not you are jewish. i find this to be a good general rule and would therefore label hakatan, who is admittedly not satmar, to be simply, an anti-semite. i pray for all jew haters to find their end quickly.April 15, 2013 2:18 am at 2:18 am #946968
Avi K -“1. The State is good because it is a mitzva (Ramban Sefer HaMitzvot). It was obviously brought about by Hashem and we see that it is a leap forward in the unfolding Geula.”
Do you think the Ramban was talking about making a State based on Kefira? How you can keep repeating the same nonsensical Shtus over and over again is beyond me!
“2. The riots of 5709 were caused by Arab nationalism and the lack of response of British security forces.”
Yes, e/o knows history and Muslims like all Goyim hate the Yidden. What you fail to understand is by creating the Medina the Zionists multiplied the Muslim/Arab hatred 100-fold.
“3. It is a great mitzva to go into the IDF. Many gedolim say so and the pillars of Halacha such as Rambam say so.”
The Gedolim that said so were mistaken. Most Gedolim hold it’s a big Aveira to go to the Army (IDF). Do you know what the Torah says about Koach V’ozem Yodi Osoh Ess Hachayil Hazeh?
You seem to be well versed in Torah that applies to Yishuv Haaretz -how about broadening your horizons and learning other parts? If you think the more soldiers the better -this is Koach V’otzem etc. And R’ Shach zt’l said the war is fought on two fronts the Bais Medrash and the army front. Tell me what would happen in a war if one country only decided to fight on one front? They probably would lose the war. This is the policy of Lapid & Bennett. So the only reason the MO aren’t shouting along with the Charedim – it must be that they agree with their policy of Koach V’otzem Yodi etc. and you don’t need guys learning full time to protect Klal Yisroel.April 15, 2013 2:24 am at 2:24 am #946969truthsharerMember
That’s historical revisionism.April 15, 2013 3:04 am at 3:04 am #946970
The so-called “Satmar shita” is actually the Torah’s shita.
Absolutely impossible! The Torah’s Shita is “Acharei Rabbim leHatos” as per a Posuk in Mishpotim.
Just about every Godol unequivocally pled with us to vote at the Israeli election, to increase religious representation in the Kenesset.
Then this lonesome Satamar Organization tell people not to vote at the election.
If defying all the Gedolei haDor isn’t Kefira:- What is Kefira?April 15, 2013 3:39 am at 3:39 am #946971WolfmanParticipant
Did the Rambam’s family flee Muslim Spain because of Muslims reacting to “Zionist” provocation?!
The Yemenites maintained their mesora davka because they were so violently discriminated against guaranteeing that they would remain separate, except when Jewish orphans were kidnapped by the … Muslims. And these policies date back to the 10th century. Must have been “Zionist” provocation?!April 15, 2013 3:56 am at 3:56 am #946972
The mistreatment of the Yemenites and what was done to them is the blackest stain that the Medinah has on its history. Denying that is denying history. However, that doesn’t turn everyone and everything related to the state into dangerous Mashmidim. No one (at least, no one non-delusional) claims that the state is perfect. Some people just think that we need to be Makir Tov to the RBSO for what we have now because it will eventually lead to the Geulah.
(I’ve quoted this before, but R’ Schachter quotes R’ Herzog who quotes a Ramban that we have a Havtacha from HKBH that we won’t lose Eretz Yisrael three times. Thus, the Medinah is the start of a Jewish sovereignty that will last L’Olam Va’ed. That is why I feel that Yom Ha’atzma’ut is a day on which to give Shevach V’hoda’ah LaHKBH.)April 15, 2013 4:15 am at 4:15 am #946973
147 -“If defying all the Gedolei haDor isn’t Kefira:- What is Kefira?”
Funny the Zionists here keep saying the “Gedolim” said vote for Bennett, not for the religious parties.April 15, 2013 4:23 am at 4:23 am #946974
It’s funny how you put words in our mouthes and then say we’re wrong. Noone thinks the arabs are our brothers except for some leftist Jews and a few NK. For the umpteenth time the Zionists have made the hatred much, much worse and caused tons of bloodshed, much more than ever was under the British and Turks.
Denial is Not just a river in Egypt.
If you’re Not a Zionist, why are you spouting their Propaganda?April 15, 2013 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #946975
i do not hold of the Satmar shitta. I hold like R’ Shach, R’ Elyashiv, and R’ Shteinman.
“It was obviously brought about by Hashem and we see that it is a leap forward in the unfolding Geula.’
Repeating something does not make it true. You have to actually prove it.
“The history of Jews in Arab lands is a history of persecution and this is well known to anyone who has studied even a little of the history.”
Oh yeah? Were the Arabs were killing 25 thousand Jews every 65 years? Did they ever kick Sephardi community out before? “Anyone who has studied even a little of the history” knows that the answer to both those questions is a resounding “no”. Again, merely repeating the same tired dross over and over does not make turn it into the truth.
“As for rov, when it was pointed out to the Satmar rebbe that he was a daat yachid”
So was R’ Kook.
“I have found the following to be a good general rule: unless you are a satmar, an anti-zionist is an anti-semite.
Until about halfway through your comment, I honestly thought that it was a satire piece designed to show the ridiculous accusations that pro-Zionists will level at anyone who disagrees with them. The fact that you seem to have truly meant it only proves that point even better.April 15, 2013 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #946977
TKND: Actually, the Sefardim were kicked out of just about every country at one point or another (as were the Ashkenazim).April 15, 2013 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #946978besalelParticipant
Kanoi: you hate the Zionists, many (most?) jews are Zionists, you hate many (most?) jews, an anti-Semite hates jews, you are an anti-Semite.
but that is not even what i meant: what i meant was most people who tell you they are anti-Zionist really mean they hate Judaism and Jews who identify as Jewish. Like Ahmadinejad who says he is not anti-Jewish but anti-Zionist. This is not true. In his heart he hates Judaism and those who identify with it. Same with Jewish people like Noam Chomsky or Norm Finklestein. Same with “religious” (looking) Jewish people. an anti-Semite is an anti-Semite is an anti-Semite. May they all be destroyed soon.
sure, there are (few) exceptions, that is why i called it a general rule. and then there is Satmar which is outside this conversation.April 15, 2013 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #946979adamemes1Participant
The Kanoim who are posting here clearly did not read V’Yoel Moshe where the Satmar Rebbe clearly states that there is no point in arguing with Apikorsim or those who are already influenced by the Zionists. Stop arguing and say some tehilim that Moshiach should come soon.April 15, 2013 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #946980
to hakatan and health and kanoi next door: what you wrote about history and HKBH’s will comes very close to real kefirah. I don’t particularly follow the gedolim that you mention. I would ask them-and you- a very simple question: The Rambam’s FIRST ani maamim reads as follows (Artscroll translation): “I believe with complete faith that the Creator, Blessed is His Name,creates and guides all creatures,and that He alone makes, and will make evertything”. Do you believe that the medinah was established against the will of HKBH? A very simple answer- yes or no?April 15, 2013 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #946981frumhershMember
Perhaps yom hoatsmaut should be the day that we celebrate that despite 65 years of a zionist state,we are still able to keep Torah
The Chazon Ish thought that we would have to keep yiddishkeit in the cellars like they did in Russia (and anyone who thinks that he was naiive seriously needs their head examining).
One of the early zionists admitted privately to a colleage who later became a baal teshuva that were it not for world opinion they would have made concentration camps for the frum yidden.How they must be turning in their graves now,with so much Torah here!April 15, 2013 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #946982truthsharerMember
Concentration camps? You just made some posters here ecstatic to find something else to attack Zionism with.
Sheesh, and they said that people aren’t that gullible.April 15, 2013 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #946983frumhershMember
I heard it from one of the gedoley hador.April 15, 2013 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #946984
ROB: That’s not at all what the first Ani Ma’amin means. The Rambam did not hold of the Artscroll Chassidishization of Hashgachah Pratis in the slightest.April 15, 2013 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #946985
Sam2- please explain your statement. The hebrew version (I am not sure whether the original was in arabic) is even stronger in its absolute assertion oh the quote. Whatever you say about the ani maamin (and I’d like to hear your interpration), it is incontrovertible that an “ikker hadas’ is to believe that nothing in this world happens without HKBH’s will. Anything else is close to kefirah, as it subtracts from HKBH’s power.April 15, 2013 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #946986
ROB: The Rambam explicitly states that he does not believe in direct Hashgachah Pratis for anyone but the highest of Tzadikim. Everyone else gets their life mapped out in general terms, but not specific events.April 15, 2013 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #946987
“Actually, the Sefardim were kicked out of just about every country at one point or another (as were the Ashkenazim).”
All at once? And not allowed back in?
“you hate the Zionists, many (most?) jews are Zionists, you hate many (most?) jews, an anti-Semite hates jews, you are an anti-Semite.”
I do not hate Zionists; I vehemently disagree with them.
Do you hate us anti-Zionists?
“Do you believe that the medinah was established against the will of HKBH? A very simple answer- yes or no?”
Being Jewsih, I’m going to answer that with a question: Do you believe that the Holocaust was against the will of HKBH? A very simple answer- yes or no? Assuming you agree the answer is no, does that mean we should celebrate the occurrence of the Holocaust?April 15, 2013 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #946988
kanoi next door: you are totally wrong. Of course, the Holocaust, with all its tragic and catastrophic aspects, was the will of HKBH! What else can you say? And what does it have to do with celebration? This is a stupid reaction. For tragic things, we say ‘boruch dayan emes’ and the Holocaust- like the churban habays , was a tragedy of massive proportions. We don’t celebrate it =of course- that’s insane but we also do not deny it came from HKBH. On the other spectrum, happy occasions ar also from HKBH and those we celebrate. I, snd many others, believe that the medinah is a happy event and so we celebrate. You are free to think otherwise but you are not free to deny that it comes from HKBH. That kind of thought is kefirah.April 15, 2013 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #946989
Sam2- you will have to give me chapter and verse where the Rambam “explicitly” said what you wrote. please show sources!April 15, 2013 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #946990benignumanParticipant
The establishment of the State is hashgacha klalis not pratis. However I don’t see how the first ikkar invalidates the Satmar shita.
“If defying all the Gedolei haDor isn’t Kefira:- What is Kefira?”
Denying Torah min Hashamayim, the Existence of Hashem, Reward and Punishment, etc.
The word “kefira” has a halachic meaning. What exactly constitutes kefira is a machlokes Rishonim. It is not a word that should be thrown around lightly.April 15, 2013 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #946991
ROB: Check the Hakdamah to Perek Chelek, I think.April 15, 2013 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #946992
“The Kanoim who are posting here clearly did not read V’Yoel Moshe where the Satmar Rebbe clearly states that there is no point in arguing with Apikorsim or those who are already influenced by the Zionists.”
Or the Kanoim here aren’t affiliated with Satmar.
“you are totally wrong. Of course, the Holocaust, with all its tragic and catastrophic aspects, was the will of HKBH! What else can you say?”
Actually, that’s exactly what I said.
“The word “kefira” has a halachic meaning. What exactly constitutes kefira is a machlokes Rishonim. It is not a word that should be thrown around lightly.”
+1April 16, 2013 2:10 am at 2:10 am #946993
I would like to take the opportunity to wish you everyone a “Yom ha’Atzmaut Sameach”.
May we all be Zochim to celabrate many more Yemei ha’Atzmaut.April 16, 2013 2:18 am at 2:18 am #946994
I’m sure Rav Schach, Rav Elchonon, the Chofetz Chaim (who authored M”B) and all the other greats must have missed that Ramban. Not.
I’ll stop there.
Voting now versus not voting now may be a difference between Satmar and others.
That is a matter of tactics ex post facto, and this is not the issue.
The so-called “Satmar Shita” referred to here (which virtually all the gedolim held and still hold) as it applies to the halachic gross heresy of the State of Israel in particular and Zionism in general is absolutely the Torah’s shita; there is no contest.
besalel: I have disagreed and continue to disagree with a number of posters on these boards, but I can not ever recall having CH”V cursed or wished any sort of bad things on any of them, CH”V.
The last two sentences of your post, above, is an absolute abomination and I am surprised the mods let that through.
For what it’s worth, I do not forgive you for including my screen name in this terrible post. How dare you curse a Jew?
Hashem can forgive Avoda Zara. But only a person can forgive bein Adam LaChaveiro.
Incidentally, if I had any doubt before that the State was a maaseh Satan, your disgraceful post pretty much clinched it.
You accuse a Jew of hating other Jews because of your invented rule of anti-Zionism being anti-semitism (which MAY be generally true when the subject is a non-Jew). Yet the Zionists who have, by their own admission, created untold (and some told) pain and tragedy to Klal Yisrael and to our creator, you are proud to stand behind.
Kal Hamiracheim al HaAchzar sofo lihyos achzar al haMiracheim.April 16, 2013 3:07 am at 3:07 am #946995popa_bar_abbaParticipant
A bit off topic, but maybe you know about this.
I was told today, that many or most of the YU roshei yeshiva do not go to the YU Yom haatzmaut chagiga. And that it is thought the reason is that they object to there being dancing for the women, even though it is behind a mechitza.
That reasoning sounds bizarre. What is the real reason.April 16, 2013 3:16 am at 3:16 am #946996
What is the real reason.
The real reason is because they are not in agreement with the date of Yom ha’Atzmaut having been changed from Iyor 5th to Iyor 6th.
The Rov held that Yom ha’Atzmaut is to be exclusively be observed on Iyor 5th, irrespective of whether Iyyor 5 is Monday, Wednsday, Friday or Shabbos.April 16, 2013 3:22 am at 3:22 am #946997
May we all be Zochim to celabrate many more Yemei ha’Atzmaut.
Aderaba, may we all be zoche to see the coming of Moshiach Tzidkeinu, BV”A!April 16, 2013 4:06 am at 4:06 am #946998charliehallParticipant
“The Rov held that Yom ha’Atzmaut is to be exclusively be observed on Iyor 5th, irrespective of whether Iyyor 5 is Monday, Wednsday, Friday or Shabbos.”
I heard that from my rav as well. I personally recited Hallel in his shul on 5 Iyar when it fell out on Shabat.April 16, 2013 4:20 am at 4:20 am #946999
rabbiofberlin -“to hakatan and health and kanoi next door: what you wrote about history and HKBH’s will comes very close to real kefirah.”
When people get flustered they come up with all sorts of denigrations against who they disagree with. In this case, I’ll just assume it’s your lack of Torah knowledge and therfore you decided to label me a Kofer or close to one. I’ll just explain my position quickly, I’m not going to go off on a tangent and start arguing and defending myself against your absurd accusations.
I’m going to quote a Gemorrah -I’m not going to even touch the Rambam because obviously the Rambam has to agree to the Gemorrah.
The Gemorrah says “Hakol B’dey Shomayim Chutz Meyiras Shomayim”.
“Everything is ordained from Heaven except fear of Heaven.” Meaning you can do what you please when it comes to doing Mitzvos or Aveiros. Hashem, IMHO, never decreed let there be a State of Israel, what instead happenned was a bunch of “real” Kofrim got together and made a State. The fact that Hashem let this happen was because he lets people do Aveiros. The fact that he hasn’t destroyed it -is because even the Freye Yidden have Zecusim. Up until now they have had the Zecusim of not forcing the Charedim into the army and somewhat supporting them. The current Israeli Gov., in the form of Lapid and Bennett, don’t even have as much sense as Ben Gurion. Even Ben Gurion understood that the Non-religious need some Zecusim to have protection against their destruction.April 16, 2013 4:54 am at 4:54 am #947000Avi KParticipant
HaKatan, Rav Schach held that Rambam does not consider it a mitzva but others such as Rav Shaul Yisraeli countered that he does not cou?t mitzvot that are included in other mitzvot or which are the bases for mitzvot (??? see Hilchot Melachim 5:6 and Rambam’s commentary on the Mishna Sota 8:6 where he obviously holds that conquest of EY is obligatory).Rav Ovadia wrote that the heter to give land is only theoretical as they really want all of EY and this is too much (begging the question of how much is not too much). As for the Chafetz Chaim, he in fact advocated serving in Goyish armies so that we would know what to do when we have our own state. In any case, almost all of the gedolim supported the establishment of the state. The leader of the Aguda in EY, Rav Y.Y. Levin,signed the Declaration of Independence and served in the first cabinet (before the idea of a deputy minister without a minister above him).April 16, 2013 5:09 am at 5:09 am #947001
PBA: I don’t know the YU hock, but I can ask people who do. I have been Zoche to attend the Chagigah a few times (there really is little like it; I always wish that there were Chareidim there so that they can see what Yom Ha’atzma’ut means to religious Zionists and maybe it would help foster a lot of peace and understanding). I know that very few go. Then again, most don’t live in the Heights and it is a pain for them to either stay away from their family/wife all day or go and then come back (for the same reason not all of them attend the Channukah Chagigah). I would guess that a few (Rav Twersky and Rav Yitzchak Cohen come to mind) don’t really hold of Zionism. I think Rav Schachter doesn’t like that both the day is changed and I think he doesn’t hold of dancing during Sefirah. I can ask around, but there are a few Rosh Yeshivah who do attend. It could be because of the girls (even though there is a good Mechitzah). It could be because they’re not so Zionistic. It could be because of the music during Sefirah. Or it could be a combination of those and more reasons.April 16, 2013 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #947002
a quick word to beninungman: If you ever read “Vajoel Moshe’ from the satmarer rebbe zz’l , you will see that he claims that the medinah comes from the “sitra achara”-the “other” side. I am no rebbe, but this comes suspiciosuly close to saying that there are “two reshuyos’ (two powers) -chas vecholiloh- and this- for anyone- smells of “kefirah”.
to health: I will ignore your gratuitious insult and deal with your actual post. you are a frequent and prolific poster here but your arguments always end in sophistry and pretzel-like convolutions.
First-your quote from the gemoro says nothing about historical events. It only deals with the FEELINGS of a jew- and it has nothing to do with what HAPPENS to a jew. As a matter of fact ,the other gemoro (that you did not quote)says ‘ein odom kofef ezbah ele im ken machrizim olov min hashomayim”- a person does not bend his finger unless it is decreed from heaven. So much for you saying that things happen without HKBH’s will.As far as the medinah- you are big into pretzel-land- you say that it was established without HKBH’s will because people are allowed to make aveirus (as if is an aveirah to establish a medinah) but the “zechusim’ keep it going. Well, maybe they continue to have zechusim forever! You and people who espouse your view will continue saying that- just around the corner!just around the corner!- is the destruction of the medinah, chas vesholom. Well, that corner will be there for the rest of our lives and -of course- will never be turned because HKBH does want the medinah with all its failings!April 16, 2013 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #947003
ROB -“First-your quote from the gemoro says nothing about historical events. It only deals with the FEELINGS of a jew- and it has nothing to do with what HAPPENS to a jew. As a matter of fact ,the other gemoro (that you did not quote)says ‘ein odom kofef ezbah ele im ken machrizim olov min hashomayim”- a person does not bend his finger unless it is decreed from heaven. So much for you saying that things happen without HKBH’s will.”
Either you don’t know what this means or your twisting it on purpose. It translates to “bangs a finger”, in other words even a miniscule amount of punishment. This in No way takes away a person’s Bechira to good or evil or even a group like the Zionist group to make a Medina. Of course unless you want to argue that the creation of the Medina is a punishment from Hashem and a way to prolong the Golus. But it seems from your post that you think the Medina is some sort of Brocha. But now that you made me think of the Medina in this light -perhaps it’s true -the creation of the Medina is nothing but a terrible Onesh.
“As far as the medinah- you are big into pretzel-land- you say that it was established without HKBH’s will because people are allowed to make aveirus (as if is an aveirah to establish a medinah) but the “zechusim’ keep it going. Well, maybe they continue to have zechusim forever! You and people who espouse your view will continue saying that- just around the corner!just around the corner!- is the destruction of the medinah, chas vesholom. Well, that corner will be there for the rest of our lives and -of course- will never be turned because HKBH does want the medinah with all its failings!”
You never know, but Ain Somechim Al Hanais. With the new Israeli Gov. losing Zecusim by the minute esp. the Zecus of Torah, e/o should be very worried that we really haven’t seen what Chevley Moshiach really means. I just think you’re putting your head in the sand due to your Negious of your Zionist beliefs!April 16, 2013 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #947004
The Brisker Rav, the Chazon Ish, Rav Shach among many others, held that the founding of the State of Israel, was a terrible thing.
The Chofetz Chaim, too, was against Zionism and even said “Kook Shmook” when he say Rabbi Kook’s piece about how soccer players are holier than neviim because they’re building the land.
So nothing you’ve written in any way impacts this. Even *if* there is a mitzva of Yishuv HaAretz still in effect during galus, this cannot come at the disastrous expense of violating any of the oaths, as history has now shown way too powerfully, Hashem Yishmor.
That signature on Israel’s blasphemous declaration of independence, assuming it’s legit, etc. is also not a proof to anything except that tactically speaking many gedolim held that once the State was a forgone conclusion that it would be better to work with it to minimize its damage. But this doesn’t at all change the clear halachic violation that the state and Zionism are.
Everyone, including Rabbi Teitelbaum, understood that since the Satan succeeded in his greatest triumph since the egel, it would be a catastrophe if the Arabs were to win in a war against Israel. But that didn’t change the halachic status of the State. Zionism and the State are still Avoda Zara and a violation of the oaths and other things, and tactical responses to the State do not change this.April 16, 2013 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #947005
ROB, when you start accusing the Satmar Rav of (“near”) Kefirah, you further illustrate how terrible is this avoda zara of Zionism and what it does to its followers.
Of course there are not “2 reshuyos”, CH”V.
All day school students know that Hashem gave the Satan power to trip up Klal Yisrael.
Let’s simplify this further: The Satan acts in accordance with Hashem’s will to make you do bad things. That means, as grade school children know, you have to resist the Satan, because that’s what Hashem wants *you* to do, to NOT listen to the Satan.
As the Brisker Rov stated, The State of Israel was the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.
To get Klal Yisrael to build an egel, the Satan succeeded in convincing the Jews that Moshe Rabbeinu was dead and made the reality seem completely different than it was, to the point that mere days after matan Torah, hearing Anochi Hashem from G-d himself, there were a small portion of Jews who said Eile Elohecha Yisrael asher heelucha meiEretz Mitzrayim to an eigel of gold.
Ad masai atem pochasim al shitei haSiifim?April 16, 2013 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #947006Avi KParticipant
HaKatan, when Rav Tvi Yehuda was told of that contention he replied that he was not acquainted with the Satan.Among gedolim who recognized the State of Israel as Hashem’s creation to advance the Geula were Rav Kahaneman, Rav Shraga Feivel Mendelowitz, Rav Herzog, Rav Menachem Kasher, Rav Meshulam Rath, Rav Aharon SoloveichikApril 16, 2013 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #947007
to health and HaKatan: you have been proponents and apologists for the satmarer shittah on this website forever and you should actually be commended for this impossible task. The problem you face are the facts. BTW- G-d forbid that I accuse R’joel zz’l of anything. I have respected him and his Torah forever- while maintaining that he has erred in his analysis of historical events. You have also ,many times, argued that the gedolim who supported Zionism and the establishment of the medinah(and there are plenty of those) have erred, so it is no insult to say that R’Joel zz’l erred.
To answer your assertions- first, health. If I remember correct, your traslation of that maamar chazal (about the finger not doing anything without the direction of heaven) is not correct and it clearly deals with actions, not punishments. But the main thing is simple.As discussed by many others on this thread, bechirah is individual but does not history make. HKBH dictates history.If -chas vecholilo- the establishments of the medinah (note ,I do not excuse the secularism of Zionism) is an aveirah, then why is it thriving? The ‘maaseh egel” brought immediate retribution! To continue saying that the medinah is evil and,although it is thriving now, that sometime in the far distant future, it will (chas vecholilo) be destroyed is just pure sophistry. You can continue doing this forever and never be contradicted because you will always say: just wait till next year!. Indeed, I have said many times that history will decide who is right. If the satmarer rebbe zz’l is (C”V) right, then the medinah will not endure. If, by contrast, we are right, then we will thrive. I, for one, believe that HKBH brought us a brocho.April 16, 2013 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #947008
Popa: Honestly, I’m actually inclined to believe that the thing about not attending due to there being girls in the gym is correct. Apparently, at the Seudas Hoda’ah today (which the boys had in the gym and the girls in another building), almost every single Rosh Yeshivah attended.April 16, 2013 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #947009
Sam, were there rikudim um’cholos?April 16, 2013 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #947010
DY: I don’t know about instruments, but there was definitely dancing. I think YU put a video of it online.April 16, 2013 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #947011
Rikudin Um’cholos actually refers to dancing. Rikudim are with one or two people, m’cholos are with many people in a circle.April 17, 2013 12:17 am at 12:17 am #947012
ROB, the only thing impossible about it is trying to reason with you and some others among the Zionist-indoctrinated mass.
But, in truth, “Kol HaPosel BiMumo Posel”. It is you who are desperately trying to defend the impossible to defend.
Again, “As the Brisker Rov stated, The State of Israel was the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.”
You’re bringing emotional sevaras that have no basis in Torah as an attempted proof against the word of virtually all gedolim? That’s not very logical, and certainly not rabbinical.
“If…the establishments of the medinah…is an aveirah, then why is it thriving? The ‘maaseh egel” brought immediate retribution!”
1. Are you proposing that Hashem should have allowed more than the 1% of its population, amounting to thousands of Jews, who died in Israel’s Independence wars?
2. Unfortunately, the punishment of “Ani Mattir es bisarchem kiAylos haSadeh” was quite evident in the 90s and, to a lesser extent, throughout the State’s tragic and very bloody history, Hashem Yishmor.
3. The USSR existed for almost a century. The Holocaust lasted the better part of a decade. Our Galus is millenia old.
Where in the Torah or in its gedolim’s sefarim does it claim that something is a good thing once it has existed for a certain amount of time?
Once again, “As the Brisker Rov stated, The State of Israel was the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.”
Avi: I’m not sure what your quote from Rabbi Kook is supposed to mean, but what are the sources for the others you mentioned?
In any event, whatever he meant is not relevant; see Matisyahu’s post in this thread:
Zionism, regardless of flavor, is wrong and very against the Torah in numerous ways. As Matisyahu mentions in that thread, none of the “Religious Zionists”, including Rabbi Kook, had answers to the gedolim’s points that made it quite obvious that Zionism is Avoda Zara and very wrong.
“Religious Zionism” is, as Rav Elchonon said, Religion and A”Z.
There is no contest, at the end of the day.April 17, 2013 3:40 am at 3:40 am #947013anIsraeliYidParticipant
Amazing how some people seem to believe that hashgacha pratis stopped in 1948. Everything before that – Retzon haBoreh. Afterwards? A Ma’ase Satan. Just amazing….
an Israeli YidApril 17, 2013 5:11 am at 5:11 am #947014
“an Israeli Yid” – is that another Zionist ignore-the-facts approach in a futile attempt to be mitaher the A”Z of Zionism?
Of course Hashgacha Pratis did not stop in 1948. Who said it did?
And who said nothing before and after that was a maaseh Satan?
One can also infer from the Brisker Rov’s words that this is not the case:
Again, as the Brisker Rov stated, “The State of Israel was the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.”
Notice he said “**greatest** accomplishment since the egel”, not the “only” one. This implies that there were other triumphs (and could certainly be others post-1948, as well) but that none of those other accomplishments were **as great** as the Satan’s accomplishment in creating the State of Israel.
Zionists just can’t stop putting out these non-substantive “arguments” which, since these aren’t serious and do not address the myriad problems with their idolatrous theology, simply mean that Zionists are so infatuated with their idolatry R”L that they either can’t or simply don’t want to consider the overwhelming evidence contrary to their idolatrous fallacies.
As I posted above:
“Religious Zionism” is, as Rav Elchonon said, Religion and A”Z.
And Matisyahu’s post in the thread mentioned there is a great read on this topic.
May Hashem redeem us all with the true geulah when we will all be zoche to the true geulah with “Umalah HaAretz Deiah es Hashem…”, without any, CH”V, idolatry of Zionism, BB”A.April 17, 2013 5:13 am at 5:13 am #947015
ROB -“To answer your assertions- first, health. If I remember correct, your traslation of that maamar chazal (about the finger not doing anything without the direction of heaven) is not correct and it clearly deals with actions, not punishments.”
I don’t understand you -I just told you – you are wrong and you say No without even looking it up. Is it possible that you never think you are wrong -no matter what proof there is against you?
Well I did just look it up in Chulin.
“‘ein odom kofef ezbah ele im ken machrizim olov”
It doesn’t even say your quote. It says “Nokef”. Rashi translates this to mean “Nogef”. Artscroll translates “A person does not stub his toe down below”. So it’s clearly talking about punishment.
“But the main thing is simple.As discussed by many others on this thread, bechirah is individual but does not history make. HKBH dictates history.”
Do you have any proof for this?
“If -chas vecholilo- the establishments of the medinah (note ,I do not excuse the secularism of Zionism) is an aveirah, then why is it thriving? The ‘maaseh egel” brought immediate retribution! To continue saying that the medinah is evil and,although it is thriving now, that sometime in the far distant future, it will (chas vecholilo) be destroyed is just pure sophistry. You can continue doing this forever and never be contradicted because you will always say: just wait till next year!. Indeed, I have said many times that history will decide who is right. If the satmarer rebbe zz’l is (C”V) right, then the medinah will not endure. If, by contrast, we are right, then we will thrive. I, for one, believe that HKBH brought us a brocho.”
Didn’t you learn Parshas Noach -he warned the people for over a hundred years and they never believed him? The Medina isn’t even close to a hundred yet and there are hundreds, if not thousands that share my beliefs about the Medina.April 17, 2013 5:51 am at 5:51 am #947016
health- the gemoro is in chulin 7B :”ein odom nokef etsbu-oi milmatoh elo im kein machrizim olov milmaloh” . Rashi mentions that the word means “to hit”. But it does not deal with punishment at all. It means that everything -even a small matter of hitting one’s finger’- is directed from the heavens. You see that from the pesukim from where the gemoro learns it. From tehillim (37): ” MeHashem mitsadei gever konnenu” And, if you look at anyone who discusses this, it is clear that we are talking about events ,not punishments.
As I have written many times, it is useless to debate this with you. History will prove one side or the other right. I venture to say that neither you nor I will be around to see the end of this.For now, I prefer to believe that HKBH is magnanimous and gave us the medinah after the awful catastrophe we suffered.April 17, 2013 5:51 am at 5:51 am #947017
And to Hakatan: see above.
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