Tagged: noticing things
July 24, 2013 12:41 am at 12:41 am #610142
You are a parent you are raising a nice yiddishe family you have 6 children the oldest Shaindy is 16 the next two children are twin boys Nosson and Yehuda they are 14, Nosson is an excellent student in Yeshiva his Rebbes write glowing reports about how he shteigs and sets a good example for the younger bochurim.
At home Nosson is a bit different he objects to doing any chores he wont take out the garbage or clear the table or get the clothes from the dryer he pretty much refuses to do anything to help the family and yet he insists on getting an increase in his allowance and getting more privileges later curfew and what not, now naturally his siblings feel it is unfair for them to do extra work while he does none at all, his defense to his behavior is that he will one day be a talmud chochum and these things are beneath him.
So what do you think should Nosson share the burden??July 24, 2013 12:58 am at 12:58 am #1106278
Derech Eretz Kadma Latorah.July 24, 2013 1:08 am at 1:08 am #1106279SecularFrummyMember
How could you expect him to do household chores? You as the parent did not prepare him for the real world and he will probably go off the derech if he has to haul the trash to the curb.July 24, 2013 1:15 am at 1:15 am #1106280notsuchalamdan16Participant
depends…if he’s doing nothing? maybe. if he’s learning? should he stop learning to sweep the floor? no by learning he is SHARING THE BURDENJuly 24, 2013 1:32 am at 1:32 am #1106282
So you should just let your child act like a spoiled brat? Its not only about learning torah its also how you practice it. I dont think behavior like that is how one should practice the torah.
And do you really think that he would go off the derech because of something so trivial as taking out the trash?July 24, 2013 1:33 am at 1:33 am #1106283
notsuch his siblings dont see it that way they view him as selfish and greedy.July 24, 2013 1:40 am at 1:40 am #1106284Oh Shreck!Participant
yeah, share the burden…July 24, 2013 1:42 am at 1:42 am #1106285kfbParticipant
He’s a kid. He should absolutely be doing the same amount of chores as his siblings. I don’t care if he’s going to be the next Michael Jordan. He needs to learn how to share the chores with his siblings so he can grow later on in life!July 24, 2013 1:45 am at 1:45 am #1106286VogueMember
this is a bad example.July 24, 2013 2:02 am at 2:02 am #1106287SecularFrummyMember
Utah, you did not pick up on my sarcasm.
I think the haredi argument is very flawed, as you astutely point out.July 24, 2013 2:07 am at 2:07 am #1106288
guess im bad with humor in writing w/eJuly 24, 2013 2:25 am at 2:25 am #1106289Burnt SteakParticipant
Ship the kid off to the military. Let him get some discipline.July 24, 2013 3:17 am at 3:17 am #1106290Bar ShattyaMember
Secularfrummy is right, send him to the army, they’ll whip him into shape… Better yet, shoot himJuly 24, 2013 3:48 am at 3:48 am #1106291rationalfrummieMember
Nosson does not understand that by doing household chores he is being mekayem at least two mitzvos dioraisa– kibbud av va’em and ve’ahavtah le’reyechah kamochah. Explain to him, in a gentle and calm manner, that every day for a little while, it is very important to stop studying and do some maasim tovim, putting your learning into effect in the real world.July 24, 2013 3:57 am at 3:57 am #1106292Bar ShattyaMember
Don’t send him to the army. He might shoot you.July 24, 2013 6:52 am at 6:52 am #1106293ToiParticipant
youre right. this story is so convincing, im gonna go right now and enlist. are you high?July 24, 2013 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #1106294jewishfeminist02Member
He says he will one day be a talmid chochom. OK, so when he grows up to be a talmid chochom, at that point he can discuss with his wife whether or not household chores are appropriate for him. Right now, he is a kid just like any other and he needs to take responsibility, not make excuses.
He also needs to learn that actions have consequences. If he won’t do his chores, he doesn’t get allowance (he wants an increase? he hasn’t even earned the basic allowance that he was getting before!) or a later curfew.
Not yet a parent. So how’d I do? 😉July 24, 2013 12:12 pm at 12:12 pm #1106295
My point on this thread is not that chilonim are not anti Torah many are and they are anti chareidi for sure they are probably terrified of the chareidi birth rate, but the fact that one segment of society is enjoying all the benefits of the government and does nothing to contribute is a compelling argument.July 24, 2013 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #1106296Torah613TorahParticipant
Yehuda shouldn’t work either, they should make the sisters do all the work.
That will make Yehuda become more of a talmid chacham.July 24, 2013 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #1106297
Vogue why is it a bad example? can you expound on that? is it bad because it is not a good comparison or is it bad because it conflicts with your viewpoint.July 24, 2013 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #1106298oomisParticipant
Oh brother (pun intended). Make this brat cash a reality check. Some of the greatest Gedolim did NOT find it beneath them to sweep the street. ALL the members of the household need to pitch in to make things run smoothly. I hope this was just a theoretical scenario. A kid who really knows Torah does not wait to be asked for his help.October 21, 2015 5:50 am at 5:50 am #1106300
The more he will be a talmid chochom the more he has to do chores.October 21, 2015 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #1106301Avram in MDParticipant
is it bad because it is not a good comparison or is it bad because it conflicts with your viewpoint.
I know this thread is two years old, but my feeling is that your OP moshol does not make a completely fair comparison. There is a world of difference between taking out the trash (2 to 5 minutes), clearing the table (5-10 minutes), changing the laundry over (2-5 minutes), and army service, which is 2-3 years immersed in an environment that is frequently hostile towards chareidim. I think the essence of your point, that those who benefit should also contribute in some form, stands, but the moshol you provided trivializes the chareidi viewpoint.October 21, 2015 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #1106302
Avram in MD, to put it perhaps more simply: There is no religious objection to taking out the garbage. There is profound religious objection to joining tzahal.
To further illustrate the quantity flaw in the analogy, I would suggest a more accurate one: You want to have Yehuda take a job in a grocery store for eight hours a day to contribute to the family income. Share the burden.October 21, 2015 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #1106303WolfishMusingsParticipant
If Nosson is claiming special privilege status based on the fact that he’s “going to be” a talmid chochom, then he is showing an arrogance and lack of humility that may prevent him from ever actually becoming one.
As an aside, I’m reminded of the story regarding R. Yaakov Kaminetzky. A young kollel husband said that his wife wanted him to take out the garbage at night. He said, however, that, as a Torah scholar, it was beneath his dignity to do so. He asked R. Yaakov what the halacha was. R. Yaakov ruled that, indeed, he may exempt himself from such duty.
The next night, there was a knock at the door. When the husband opened the door, he found R. Yaakov standing there, ready to take out the garbage for the husband so as not to degrade his (the husband’s honor). The husband got the message.
The WolfOctober 21, 2015 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #1106304baruchderrinParticipant
There have been many tzadikim, i personally knew one who knew the entire shas and was well respected, he did sponga every week before or after shabbos to help his wife. he was an alte mirrer in shanghi and despite the many hardships and his pitching in he made it to very great heights in torah and he had exemplary derech eretz, so i would think the tzadikl can pitch in a bit tooOctober 21, 2015 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #1106305mobicoParticipant
Frankly, the Mashal is insulting. Nobody claims that other should do their work for them while they sit back and relax since they will one day be Talmidei Chachamim. Nor does anyone claim that others should shoulder their share since the ARE Talmidei Chachamim. The country from its inception – as decided by the secular leaders – recognize that one who IS learning is at the very least sharing the burden – if not carrying the lion’s share. (This, by the way, is reflected in the laws of a democratic country. Does anyone think that the Chareidim are “controlling” the Israeli government? That smacks of general anti-Semitism.)
Furthermore, the Mashal feeds the dangerous and libelous assertion that Chareidim are “parasites” who contribute nothing to society, but rather expect that, as their due, others should slave away for them. This utterly ignores many inconvenient truths, such as the fact that the overwhelming majority of Chareidim work and pay taxes, and that they run hundreds if not thousands of Gemachim from which religious and secular benefit alike.
A more apt Mashal would have Nachum humbly and graciously performing his chores along with his siblings, only to have them claim that he deserves to receive nothing but stale bread and water since he does not bring any money home.October 22, 2015 12:28 am at 12:28 am #1106306
Too much.October 22, 2015 1:01 am at 1:01 am #1106307fathousewifeParticipant
Of course he has to help. Being puffed up with self importance will make him insufferable.October 22, 2015 1:39 am at 1:39 am #1106308One LinerMember
Perhaps the parents shouldn’t ask him to do the chores if he’s learning
But in no way is he justified in refusing when askedOctober 22, 2015 2:13 am at 2:13 am #1106309
he did sponga every week before or after shabbos to help his wife.
my husband never does any housework to help me. he does housework for himself and the upkeep of the house. just like i do.
(pet peeve #476)October 22, 2015 2:23 am at 2:23 am #1106310
Housework is the duty of the housewife. A husband should help sometimes.October 22, 2015 2:28 am at 2:28 am #1106311
in your very small daled amos, perhaps.October 22, 2015 2:37 am at 2:37 am #1106312
In your feminist amos perhaps not.October 22, 2015 2:53 am at 2:53 am #1106313
You’re both wrong. Housework is the job of Nosson, Yehuda and Shaindy.October 22, 2015 3:05 am at 3:05 am #1106314
You must mean homework.October 22, 2015 3:12 am at 3:12 am #1106315
there is not an ounce of feminism in me, my household or my life. If anything, i am pretty anti-feminism. And since we have already had that discussion i will consider this a validating demonstration of your long standing preference for your mistaken assumptions over truth.October 22, 2015 3:16 am at 3:16 am #1106316
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.October 22, 2015 3:16 am at 3:16 am #1106317
I was actually just annoyed at the off-topicness and trying to get you both to stop.October 22, 2015 3:25 am at 3:25 am #1106318zogt_besserParticipant
a better moshol would be if the parents pulled nosson out of yeshiva and sent him to public school for 2 years, where he’d have issues with kashrus, tznius, shabbos, and finding time to daven and learn. MNosson’s parents are good people, and just want him to have a good secular education. Sadly, they don’t understand the value of Torah and are too disconnected from their roots to see his perspective.October 22, 2015 3:49 am at 3:49 am #1106319
and ‘methinks’ that answer is obnoxious. you accuse me of something that i find highly offensive and i explain it isn’t true or accurate. you chose to ignore social rules by accusing me again, and then when I take offense at both your rudeness AND disregard, you consider that too much protesting. It seems you don’t really understand the phrase (you have misused it in the past), too much means more than the required amount. that would mean more than two for two.
It also seems that when you are wrong you chose to be offensive or change the subject.October 22, 2015 3:59 am at 3:59 am #1106320
Right or wrong, neither of you will successfully convince the other.October 22, 2015 4:01 am at 4:01 am #1106321
Good night, Good night! Parting is such sweet sorrow, that I shall say good night till it be morrow.October 22, 2015 4:12 am at 4:12 am #1106322
convince the other of what?October 22, 2015 4:17 am at 4:17 am #1106323
That you are right and the other is wrong.
And why the Shakespeare?October 22, 2015 4:19 am at 4:19 am #1106324
about what?October 22, 2015 4:42 am at 4:42 am #1106325
convince the other of what?
You will not convince him that you’re not a feminist, and he won’t convince you that you are.October 22, 2015 4:45 am at 4:45 am #1106326
i dont need to convince him that i am not something. and i was asking rebyidd because i am sure s/he hadnt a clue what s/he was commenting on.October 22, 2015 4:54 am at 4:54 am #1106327
What difference would it make, if that is indeed true, which I neither confirm nor deny?October 22, 2015 11:04 am at 11:04 am #1106328
i dont need to convince him that i am not something.
That’s good, because you probably wouldn’t succeed anyhow.
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