November 9, 2015 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #1111353
Wrong, Joseph. Since Avnei Nezer Yoreh Deah 312,49 where he explicitly states that the king has no business punishing Shabbat violators.
Regarding working for the government, what happened to civil society? In any case, there are three sheetot regarding how we can be a light unto the nations:
1. According to Rav Shimshon Raphael Hirsch it means being scattered among them until Mashiach comes.
2. According to Rav Kook (and expounded further by Rav Zalman Melamed) it means kibbutz galuyot, establishing a state in EY and being part of the community of nations.
3. According to the YU sheeta there ar two centers, the US and Israel.November 9, 2015 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1111354WolfishMusingsParticipant
Right. The Torah mandates that (and specifies the penalty). The King can insure the Torah prescribed rules are enforced by the courts.
I’m pretty sure you mean “ensure” not “insure.”
In any event, even if what you say is true, there are no qualified courts — and the king cannot create them of his own volition, so it doesn’t really matter.
Furthermore, as per the OP, you wouldn’t be a halachic king (with all the halachic powers it entails) simply because a king is not elected… the position is inherited. My OP meant king/queen in terms of being granted practical authority, not necessarily the actual halachic status of a king.
The WolfNovember 9, 2015 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #1111355☕️coffee addictParticipant
there are ONLY three shitot?
no one else explains what or lagoleh means? I find that highly unlikelyNovember 9, 2015 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #1111356Little FroggieParticipant
Could ANYONE kindly tell me what this “light unto the nations” is all about.November 9, 2015 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #1111357
Why not? If there is a Jewish King ruling, Jewish courts with full power can also be established.
In fact, during the times of Rabbenu Asher (the Rosh) in 13th century Spain, the Jewish courts in Spain had enacted and enforced capital punishment and carried out the death penalty for affronts such as blasphemy. See responsa 17:8.November 9, 2015 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #1111358
Joseph, now you are changing the subject. rabbinic courts are another story but in order for them to be able to impose the death penalty the Bet HaMikdash would have to be rebuilt and semicha renewed. Even then, the evidentiary requirements would more or less preclude imposing it in practice.November 9, 2015 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #1111359
Avi, when the Rosh presided and the Jewish rabbinic courts carried out the death penalty in Spain, there unfortunately was no Beis HaMikdash or Sanhedrin and nevertheless the punishment was carried out in practice.November 9, 2015 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #1111360WolfishMusingsParticipant
In fact, during the times of Rabbenu Asher (the Rosh) in 13th century Spain, the Jewish courts in Spain had enacted and enforced capital punishment and carried out the death penalty for affronts such as blasphemy. See responsa 17:8.
And, furthermore, see that the Rosh said that he was astonished to find the community doing so and was against it.
A translation I found…
In all the lands of my acquaintance, the death penalty is not practiced, except here in Spain. When I arrived here, I was most surprised that this was done without a Sanhedrin. I was told that it was by way of a royal dispensation utilized by the Jewish court to save lives that would be lost were they left to Gentile courts. And while I permitted them to maintain this practice, I never agreed with their taking of a life in such fashion.
It seems that the Jewish capital courts were used to *save* people who would have otherwise been tried and executed by non-Jews. However, it is clear, that even if the Jewish court did engage in executions, the Rosh was clearly against such a practice.
Furthermore, I would argue that since the operating authority of these courts was the Spanish crown and not the Sanhedrin, they were acting as Jewish secular courts and not as a duly-constituted Bais din… much like a secular Israeli court would be viewed today.
The WolfNovember 10, 2015 12:26 am at 12:26 am #1111361
The Rambam in Mishna Torah Rotzeach Ushmiras Nefesh 2:4 says a King can execute murderers even if beis din cannot. Both the King and Beis Din (i.e. see Sanhedrin 46a about executing someone who rode a horse on Shabbos – which is not a capital offense under the Torah) in general have the extrajudicial halachic right for societal benefit to order executions as a punishment for an act that for technical reasons doesn’t qualify for capital punishment under pure Torah Law.November 10, 2015 6:01 am at 6:01 am #1111362
What does that have to do with societal benefit? Shabbat violation is an aveira against Hashem not someone else. An example where the king would have power would be Blue laws. However, if someone invited ten Jews to his house and lit a match c”v the king would not have jurisdiction.November 10, 2015 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #1111363apushatayidParticipant
“You’re In Charge of Brooklyn Jewry… What Do You Do?”
Resign and move to Rechovot.November 10, 2015 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #1111364apushatayidParticipant
Avi K. How do you explain the mikoshesh then? He was a mechallel shabbos, not someone who purchased scotch on sunday morning.November 11, 2015 5:48 am at 5:48 am #1111365sm29Participant
Middos and respect and internalize emunah and joy,November 11, 2015 6:06 am at 6:06 am #1111366
Apushatayid, he was executed by a bet din after all of the conditions were met. That is to say, besides two kosher witnesses and warning he said “?? ??? ??” (Rambam, Hilchot Sanhedrin 12,2).
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