December 14, 2012 5:26 am at 5:26 am #607435cantgetitMember
Yeshiva University Highs School for Boys was advised that a principal and a Talmud teacher were molesting boys in yeshiva, and instead of reporting it to the police N. Lamm covered it up by letting the two staff members go work for other schools without advising the next school that these men are abusers.December 14, 2012 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #913511artchillParticipant
The school was wrong…PERIOD.
In the late 70’s and early 80’s abuse of this type was not as much on the radar screen of the police. As a result, due to a lack of educational awareness they didn’t do anything.
For honesty sake: The new schools failed to call YU for a reference. The two staff members didn’t contact YU to let them know where they were hired, so YU has no responsibility.
This is drastically different than what goes on nowadays with all the educational awareness and advocacy on behalf of children. Schools that are aware of allegations nowadays had better ensure things are investigated and no shuffling to different schools.December 14, 2012 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #913512
I might be wrong but MORE Loshon Hora, Rechilus and Sinaas Chinam that will generated from such a topic/blog will not remedy what was done and will certainly not help the situation.
I am NOT condoning/defending what was done AT ALL. If someone in the CR has anything constructive to add about this horrific story (or similar stories), then please report the information you have to the proper authorities.
Discussing it and analyzing he said/she said/Joseph said will not help this matter, only will make it worse.
We as a Klal have enough issues, we don’t need to add useless “fuel” to the fire.December 14, 2012 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #913513NaysbergMember
Why hasn’t Norman “caveman” Lamm been fired in light of his actionsDecember 14, 2012 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #913514besalelParticipant
i saw this statement today:
Dear Yeshiva University Community,
At this institution we continually review and strengthen policies and practices addressing the safety of all members of the Yeshiva family. We are vigilant and responsible, and always will be. While we cannot change the past, I can say with absolute certainty that Yeshiva University has implemented, and will continue to maintain and enforce the policies and procedures necessary to assure a safe environment. Such policies and procedures, established in consultation with outside experts, include:
Members of our own faculty and staff, at every level, undergo training designed to increase sensitivity to these issues, including mandatory training for new hires concerning sexual harassment.
Before embarking on service learning and experiential education missions where they will work with children, students are taught to recognize warning signs of child abuse and to refer concerns to appropriate authorities.
Students are encouraged to report any incidents of abuse to the University administration and should feel safe knowing that their security is our number one concern. A hotline exists to enable confidential reporting of such complaints. The hotline number is 866-447-5052.
Members of our faculty advocate on behalf of victims of child abuse; consult and advise around the world, including with child protective service organizations, and in communities across the spectrum; and present educational programs designed to prevent abuse both to parents and children.
CJF offers continuing educational programs to rabbis and rebbetzins, including a certificate program, to help them recognize and address all forms of abuse in their communities.
Anyone who may have suffered harm is invited to contact us in confidence. By emailing [email protected], counseling resources of the University will be made available to you, and I welcome the opportunity to personally and confidentially discuss any issues with anyone who may have suffered harm. I can be reached at [email protected] or (212) 960-5300.
Thank God, communities across the nation are well aware of these issues today, and hopefully address them appropriately. At Yeshiva University we are committed to our sacred obligation to ensure that best practices are set and followed on our own campuses, and to play a key role in the broader community in keeping our most precious resource, our children, safe from harm.
Richard M. Joel
President and Bravmann Family University ProfessorDecember 14, 2012 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #913515☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
They used to think molesting is okay?December 14, 2012 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #913516
They didnt think it was OK, they just didnt realize how bad it really was and covered it up like everyone else did (Like the Catholic Church)December 14, 2012 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #913517dolphinaMember
My understanding is that many believe it is ok today as long as there is no physical evidence and kosher eidim.
And not so sure on the physical evidence, since if a goy handles DNA and he hates jews he might mess up the results, so even then it’s iffy.December 14, 2012 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #913518NaysbergMember
zsdad: You’ve been crusading against the chareidim on the other threads for alleged abuses. Where are you calling for Lamm to be sent to prison for failing to report the abuse he was aware of when it happened to the authorities?December 14, 2012 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #913519farrockgrandmaParticipant
no, not ok. maybe in the past people were more ready to believe that a single reported case of abuse was just that, a single case. and we do have a ‘catholic priest problem’ meaning that we have difficulty believing that someone we know and trust and regard highly could possibly have done what they are accused of, especially if the accuser is someone who is younger, less reputable or credible, or ‘troubled’.December 14, 2012 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #913520
Look at the differance in response from YU vs the response of the Satmar community. And what happend was 30 years agoDecember 14, 2012 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #913521artchillParticipant
You started this thread and it seems that you are implying that YU is no different than any other chassidic or yeshiva institution. That is incorrect. YU did the minimum…..terminating the teachers in question.
This is better than you can say about some of finest yeshiva and chassidic yeshivas.December 14, 2012 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #913522PBTMember
Well, once you start abusing Judaism, as YTC does on several points, you’ll end up abusing Jews. YTC has always held itself as “liberal Orthodox.” But a real “liberal” is someone who applies the most lenient side of the law. A “liberal” is not someone who, in the name of simplicity or whatever else, violates the law.December 14, 2012 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #913523
I believe this is an example of the double standard.
Oh, Zdad, Lamm’s response was that he was to busy with money at the time to deal with this. I am glad that you believe that is a response that you are happy with and do not have to post your many imbecilic posts. And you also feel that it’s a satisfactory answer that you do not have to identify them as ?????.December 15, 2012 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #913524
I have never gone to YU or MTA and I have nothing to do with them, although I know people who went there and they did know the Reshaim who did this, including some Charedim (They were not Charedi when they went to MTA or YU)
First of all Norman Lamm isnt with YU anymore he retired. So he cannot be fired. He is in his mid 80’s. Richard Joel is the head of YU.
To say I am happy with their response isnt true, I am not happy what went on there , its disgusting and wrong, but it is not the same as what happend this week in Williamsburg, The community supports that Rasha, I do not support these reshaim, I will not give them any money for defense. And the people I spoke with over Shabbos dont really support the YU perps either (The ones who know them)
As far as Lamm going to prison, I never called for any Satmar leadership to go to Prison only the person who committed the crime, and If the 2 at YU committed the crime and are convicted by a Jury, YES they should go to JailDecember 15, 2012 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #913526akupermaParticipant
According to the “Forward” (a very anti-Orthodox newspaper, but one with fairly comprehensive coverage of Jewish issues, and quite interesting if you take their biases into account), there were no accusation of anything that would be considered a sex offense. They would be guilty of simple assault, not sodomy nor rape. Vulgarity is not a crime.
Non-sexual abuse is a crime, but not one that is routinely an issue after 30 years.December 16, 2012 1:48 am at 1:48 am #913527
To state that there is anyone in Satmar that supports a criminal is not just wrong it is deliberate LH on an entire Kehilla.
And By thw way the “hallmark” of Satmar is the amazing Chesed they do for every single Yid regardless of what their BEliefs are.
Chesed that I myself was a reciepient of.
What Satmar says is that this man is innocent and they are vehemently opposed to the accusser who they feel is guilty of deliberatley destroying someone life.
To state that Satmar tolerates the types of things that is allegged to have occured is absurd.
If a man is found to attmpt doing such a thing in Satmar he would quite literally be beaten within an inch of his life.
You know that, I know that, The entire world knows that.
One need no further proof of this then the simple fact that it is unwise for a single girl to be on the streets late at night in the heart of the most “liberal” tolerant communities, yet such problems don’t exist B”H in the heart of Meah Shearim.
However in Satmar someone can not just scream abuse tell a convincing story several years after something allegedly happened and thereby completley ruin a mans life.
They want proof and proof does not mean someone else saying “I know others but they are afraid to say anything.December 16, 2012 3:27 am at 3:27 am #913528
As long as Satmar gives ONE PENNY to this RASHA, they are supporting a criminalDecember 16, 2012 3:38 am at 3:38 am #913529WIYMember
Are you iced?
Btw you should read what the Dily news is saying about what the Satmar Rishoyim are up to and I believe every word and in fact Im sure its worse than reported bec you know how hard it is to get info in that community.December 16, 2012 7:03 am at 7:03 am #913531
No I am not iced.
And I don’t have access to the Daily News nor would I beleive anything they wrote.
In fact I did not know that there were people who did beleive what they wrote.
And I was not aware that there was a heter to beleive a MOtzei Shem Rah on a whole community.December 16, 2012 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #913532WIYMember
I see you would only believe that all Jews who look frum and certainly if they have a beard are tzaddikim and therefore they can never do evil so if the papers report about it they must be lying. Sadly we see on a regular basis and it has been going on for millenia but it seems worse in the last few decades that looking frum and being frum are 2 totally different things. Our communities unfortunately have many outwardly lokking frum people who have done terrible things ranging from ponzi schemes that have robbed people of their entire parnassa as to molestors to even murder. You want to pretend its all made up and live in Disneyland go right ahead. But the facts are that things are bad in certain communities because we allow them to be. We cover up for both criminals and perverted cowards who do sick things to children. You want to stick up for a community that runs itself like a satanic cult go right ahead. But there are people like myself and a few others here who will stand up and decry the Chillul Hashem that people who “look holy” are doing. These people pick and choose halacha according to their whim. By them tbere are only 2 dibros. NEVER MAASER ON ONE OF US. AND NEVER COOPERATE WITH TH EVIL AMERICAN GOVT. Its time to stop tolerating the lawlessness that goes on. Its like Chicago in Al Capones days. They use mafia tactics and can put mafia to shame.December 16, 2012 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #913533
In other words if someone clearly states that certain acts are reprehensible if proven to take palce.
However said person also states that one cannot destroy a person and along with it his entire family, nor can they slander a whole community without any proof what so ever other then one persons word.
Then that person is “covering up”
In other words no longer is the slightest shred of proof needed.
Or perhaps you mean that if a young attractive girl convinces 12 jurors in NYC that a middle aged religous man did unspeakable acts to her for a period of several years without her parents having a clue and she kept quiet for years out of “fear”, a fear that seemed not to have prevented her from doing anything else that she pleased whether her community approved of it or not.
That constitues proof.
Oh and the fact that millions of American citizens stated they viewed BO as more competent on the economy also is clear proof that he is.
Just wait for the boom times they a’comin.December 16, 2012 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #913534
Again, what was done was terrible, but one also needs to consider what would be investigated?
This happened around 20 years ago, both men are no longer in the USA. The HS is on its 4th administration since 1995.
Rabbi Lamm is in his 80s, there is a new YU President as well since this happened.
Speaking/blogging in hindsight it is very easy to point fingers and start assigning blame, but to expect the reactions/measures that we are accustomed to now to have been in place and adhered to 20 years ago is impractical and almost imposssible to ask.
In addition? who is there to hold responsible and punish?? To drag an entire HS/College Campus into this mess via collateral damage just doesn’t make any sense. Are the walls guilty?? The elevator??
Everyone is trying to connect this to Penn State and the other similar crimes done, these circumstances could not be more different!
Also, the person who “revealed” this to the press is doing so 12 years after he blackmailed Rabbi Lamm for an apology/compensation. This seems to be uncovering an old witchhunt just to spite YU.
If these crimes were so heinous as he claims, why did he wait 12 years?? If they would have paid him off 12 years ago, would he have remained quiet and sold all the other victims down the river b/c his personal agenda was satisfied?
Would love to hear some intelligent responses!
(disclaimer, I went to MTA/YU and know one of the “wrestlers”)December 16, 2012 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #913535cantgetitMember
Dr. Lamm is still Chancellor Emeritus at YU. Why has he not lost his job now that this came to light? He failed to report two child molestors he was aware of while they were committing their heinous crimes on children in YU, to the police authorities.
By the way, five new students have now come out and said they too were abused.December 16, 2012 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #913536
Ok, so fire him and move on – he is the only left at the University from that era who was involved.
But there is no need for investigations and to implicate others who currently work there who weren’t anywhere near the campus then is a little much.December 16, 2012 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #913537
The story is just like Horace Mann school. And guess what, the response was the same. The question is if Professor R Lamm should still receive hundreds of thousands each year from YU, most of which he takes tax free.
The responses on this thread are a clear indication of the dual standard in the CR.December 16, 2012 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #913538
What dual standard? What is your comparison?December 16, 2012 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #913540
The senseless vitriol is reserved for use on chareidim in a possibly similar case.December 16, 2012 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #913541
“possibly a similar case”? are you referring to a hypothetical case? Are you conjecturing a what if scenario?
If you are referring to the Weberman case and want to compare the two, so let us first see if the “modern” crowd will start to harrass, bribe and scare the victims into keeping quiet. Let us see if the “MOs” will throw bleach at a fellow Jew’s face. Let us see if the modern world will host a fund raiser to help an alleged child molester?
To be fair, if you want to compare the two cases, then compare the IMPORTANT things, not just the reaction on some “frum” blog.
Second, who knows the Hashkafa and background of each poster here?
Do the two reactions even matter? People got abused and you worry about some bloggers? Maybe let’s focus on the victims? Or I forget, in your world, the victim is the abuser, sorry!December 16, 2012 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #913542☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
GM, NDG specifically wrote that he was referring to responses in the CR.December 16, 2012 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #913543
Yes, I am aware, but responses to what? He was comparing responses to the YU case to a different case. Or at least he was attempting to compare something!December 17, 2012 12:16 am at 12:16 am #913544
President Emeritus is not really a job, Its an honory position usually given to a long time employee who has retired.
Most times it isnt paid either other than a pensionDecember 17, 2012 3:00 am at 3:00 am #913545
Take a chill pill.
There was a thread about a dual standard in the Coffee room. I was pointing out that there is, but not the dual standard that the OP was making. And it was well proven. And yet again by your comment.
And perhaps you can tell us why you have such a benign reaction to the YU case. Certainly since you show that you tend to have explosive reactions.December 17, 2012 3:12 am at 3:12 am #913546
On the most recently available 990 Norman Lamm is defined as trustee and chancellor and his comp was about 500,000 of which he took over 200,000 tax free. This is easily available, look it up yourself. It is also about 75% more than he made 8 years earlier. Hardly what you would call just retirement pay.
And he is listed as an officer, which means by IRS definition that he makes decisions regarding running the institution. Is that Just Honorary? Not the way the IRS looks at it.
What you purport to be fact is entirely incorrect.December 17, 2012 4:53 am at 4:53 am #913547
No, I am not taking a “benign” response, I just think that this whole case is being blown out of proportion. Again, I do not defend what happened, nor do I defend the covering up.
That being said, there is really nothing left to investigate, other than Rabbi Lamm. No one else is left. Most investigations are geared to ensure that the predators are removed and dealt with. These “predators” have been gone for 20 years!
To go backwards 20 years, might satisfy the media and those who want YU blood, but really what will it achieve?December 17, 2012 6:27 am at 6:27 am #913548MammeleParticipant
Just read a fascinating piece “I was falsely accused” and although the story is not even finished (the author is writing it piecemeal) it’s extremely informative and scary.
And knowing someone who was witness to a murder and that someone strongly believes they convicted the wrong guy bc conviction is all that matters, our justice system is apparently not as perfect as we were led to believe. B”H most of us are outsiders to the criminal justice system hence our naivete.
So all of you saying that the community is in denial, perhaps it’s the other way around.December 17, 2012 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #913549
A trustee is not an employee and Yes some people who are retired do get very generous retirement packages (Even $500,000)
The normal way non-profits are run is trustees and board of directors are sperate from the institution and not employed by them (They might get a stipend for the position)
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