Zechiras Amolek

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  • #1579731
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    It says ולא ירא אלקים Rashi explains that this refers to Amolek, but the Daas Zekinem Mibaal Tosfes says that it refers to the Bnei Yisroel with the measurements mentioned above. The Sifsei Chachomim explains Rashi that Yorei is a passed tense referring to what was mentioned above but if it refers to the Bnei Yisroel it should use an adjective Yerei with a Shvo under the yud.

    #1838141
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    If we take the letters after השמים – ו,ת,נ,כ,נ adds up to 6 plus 400 plus 50 plus 20 plus 50 = 526 same as שכור = 526
    indicating even when we are drunk we should not forget amolek.

    #1943650
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Rashi brings a mashel on ויבא עמלק, and Amolek came, which we should keep in mind all the time. A father is carrying his son on his shoulders. Someone asks the son, where is your father? He says, I don’t know, so he throws him to the dogs. Hashem carries us on his shoulders by providing al of our needs and we forget, so Hashem threw us to the dogs to Amolek.

    #1943652
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The GRA explains why Yehoshua had to write the commemoration in a sefer. The sefer has no dots. Yoav killed the males because he said that his rebbi taught him the word was zochor amolek and not zecher amolek. so Yehoshua needed to be taught how to read the word.

    #1943659
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Rabbenu Bachaya says that אוה’ למושב לו’ Hashem desires to rest there, stands for aleph of כס and ‘vov, heh’ of י-ה , in order Meshiach should come, His throne has to be complete and His name should be complete.

    #1943657
    ujm
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, if you knew with 100% certainty that a certain man or woman was an Amoleki, would you slay them; and if so, would you do it happily? (Assuming you knew there would be no legal consequences from any non-Jewish government.)”

    #1943671
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    By ihr hanidachas, the GRA says, we are promised the character trait mercy not to become cruel. We are not the murderous type, but ani chashev kameis as Elifaz did to Yaakov, you can give him a bad
    advice in investment to lose his money. Isn’t there a contadiction in Beshalach it says, Hashem will destroy them whereas in Ki Seitzei there is a mitzva on us. Maybe, since we don’t know who they are, Hashem will destroy them.

    #1943793
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The GRA explains above reply #1943652 not why it was written in the sefer but why is it said, vesim beoznei Yehoshua, to make Yehoshoa hear it, to understand how rhe word zecher is pronunced and not zochor as they are no nekudos, dots for vowels, in the Torah.

    #1943814
    ujm
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, did you miss my question?

    #1943816
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    ujm, I wrote a reply #19436i71 did you see it?

    #1943820
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That dodged the question, didn’t answer it.

    #1943823
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Daas Yochid, ujm, you answer it.

    #1943829
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Shmuel killed Agag but Shaul could not.

    #1943827
    ujm
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, sure. I would happily.

    Would you not?

    #1943833
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No, because according to most, it’s not applicable today for several reasons, besides what you referred to.

    From Din.org.il:

    המצוה להלחם בעמלק ולהכרית את זרעו, נחלקו בה ראשונים: יש סוברים, שהיא מצוה המוטלת על כלל הציבור, ואין כל יחיד ויחיד מישראל חייב בה (ראה: סהמ”צ לרמב”ם סוף מנין מצוות עשה; רי”פ פערלא ח”א עשה נט [דף רסא] בדעת הרס”ג). ויש סוברים, שהיא מצוה המוטלת על המלך (ראה: רמב”ן שמות יז טז; יראים סימן תלה; רד”ק שמואל א טו א; תועפות רא”ם על היראים שם בדעת הסמ”ג). לדעות אלו, הואיל וקיומה של מצוה זו הוא בדרך של מלחמה, הנעשית מעצם טבעה על ידי הציבור כולו ותחת הנהגתו של מלך, לא ניתן לצוות על כך כל יחיד מישראל (הר אפרים על המכילתא סו”פ בשלח. וראה חדושי הגרי”ז עה”ת [סטנסיל] אות קח, שאף הציבור אינם מחוייבים להלחם בכל עת, אלא על פי הוראת נביא). אחרים סוברים, שמלבד המצוה המוטלת על הציבור להלחם בעם העמלקי ולכלותו, יש חיוב לכל יחיד מישראל להמית מזרעו של עמלק, אם יזדמן לו הדבר שלא בדרך מלחמה (ראה: ספר החינוך, והר אפרים שם בדעתו; ישבב סופר סנהדרין [עמ’ קעז וקפא]).

    #1943832
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I have never killed anyone as I was not in the army and I don’t own a gun, so I don’t know.

    #1943841
    ujm
    Participant

    DY: Thanks.

    Reb Eliezer: If you never dealt with animals and aren’t a zoologist would that make you uncertain whether you’d fulfill שילוח הקן‎ if you had the opportunity?

    #1943844
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t think you understood his answer.

    #1943847
    ujm
    Participant

    I understood him to mean that he’s uncertain whether he’d have the courage. Correct me if that’s a misunderstanding. So let’s modify the question to where he knows he doesn’t lack the courage.

    #1943949
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The halacha might not apply to the individual as DY posted and I don’t know how to do it. so I would not do it.

    #1944048
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I understood him to mean that he’s uncertain whether he’d have the courage.

    If you had, you wouldn’t have compared it to שילוח הקן.

    #1944133
    Shalom-al-Israel
    Participant

    1. One of the reasons of Haredi (ultra orthodox) objection to serve in Army (Israeli draft) is on the score of BrisDin “Katlonis”..that it might affect one’s soul, even when killing is justified. (Yeshivishe T”Ch explained it years ago).

    2. We don’t know who Amolek is. Since the time of NACH. Sancheriv bilbeil Kol HoUmos.

    3. “Amolek” is also an idea…

    #1944139
    ujm
    Participant

    Shalom, would you be proud to fulfill the mitzvah regarding Amalek and wish you could? (I would.)

    #1944138
    Shalom-al-Israel
    Participant

    Since IrHanidachas was mentioned…

    Or-haChayim states :

    ונתן לך רחמים ורחמך. כוונת מאמר זה כאן לפי שצוה על עיר הנדחת שיהרגו כל העיר לפי חרב ואפילו בהמתם מעשה הזה יוליד טבע האכזריות בלב האדם, כמו שספרו לנו הישמעאלים כת הרוצחים במאמר המלך כי יש להם חשק גדול בשעה שהורגים אדם ונכרתה מהם שורש הרחמים והיו לאכזר, והבחינה עצמה תהיה נשרשת ברוצחי עיר הנדחת לזה אמר להם הבטחה שיתן להם ה’ רחמים הגם שהטבע יוליד בהם האכזריות מקור הרחמים ישפיע בהם כח הרחמים מחדש לבטל כח האכזריות שנולד בהם מכח המעשה. ואומרו ורחמך העיר בזה שכל זמן שהאדם הוא בגדר טבע אכזרי כמו כן יתנהג ה’ עמו שאין ה’ מרחם אלא לרחמן:

    And [Hashem] shall give you mercy and compassion. The intent of this order here is … this act will [usually] give birth to the nature of cruelty in the heart of man, as the Ishmaelites told us the murderers cult in the king’s order that they have a great desire when they kill a person…therefore G-d promised them he would give them mercy even though nature would give birth to the cruelty …

    #1944173
    Shalom-al-Israel
    Participant

    Very dear ujm.. I really don’t give it thought. Kol tuv.

    #1944188
    Shalom-al-Israel
    Participant

    To add on#1944173
    Yet, remembering what Amolek did. Of course we all do and mekayem the mitzvah.

    #1944295
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    According to the Sefer Hachihuch the women are exempt as they don’t fight, but the Minchas Chinuch asks that this is an obligatory war so even a kallah from the chuppa would be taken maybe for support?

    #1944320
    Shalom-al-Israel
    Participant

    Yes, the Minchath-Chinuch comments that theory, still, from ikar halocho today, women are not mechuyev even in parshas zochor, though it BECAME a chiyuv based on Kiblu-al-atzmon…

    #1949429
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    We find that Bnei Yisroel is called rishon and Amolek is called rishon. The Dubner Magid compares this to a doctor and a gibor. Hashem is both a doctor and a gibor. If a gibor wants to denonstrate his strength, he defeats someone being considered strong and a doctor cures someone weak and sickly. Hashem, the gibor, will defeat Amolek and heal and elevate the Bnei Yisroel who are weak and low in galus.

    #1949902
    Shalom-al-Israel
    Participant

    You mean REISHIS not Rishon…

    #2067692
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Russia has turned itself into Amolek.

    #2067808
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Reb E, how has russia turned itself into amalek? They’re not attacking jews directly, there are yidden who are caught up in the crossfire…has Putin expressed any desire or done any action to target yidden?

    Goyim are allowed to conquer other nations to increase their borders. Lehavdil, we are too, that is the essence of milchemes reshus, to increase the borders of eretz yisroel. Westerners might not like conquest, and we should pursue peace and of course advocate for the war to stop to save the yidden who are in danger, but the idea itself of one nation conquering another is not evil or forbidden.

    Also, amalek being an “idea” that can manifest in other nations does not in the least detract from the obligations to wipe out even newborn infants. UJM is trying to drive home the idea that we are happy and proud to do mitzvos, even (actually, especially) when they go against our nature as rachmonim bnei rachmonim, because we are able to serve Hashem by breaking ourselves with mesiras nefesh, as avrohom avinu did with the akeidah. He didn’t do it begrudgingly, he woke up early bezeizus and was ready to do it as he did any other mitzvah. kal vechomer ben bno shel.kal vechomer when the subject of the mitzvah are reshoim.

    #2067871
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Avira, I said that because of my personal experiences remembering the Hungarian Revolution.
    We escaped Sopron, Hungary as refugees in the beginning of 1957 being 9 years old. There was no yiddishkeit left when all other Jews escaped and there was no minyan anymore, so even though they did not target the Jews directly, the effect was the same.

    #2067872
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “Goyim are allowed to conquer other nations to increase their borders…….the idea itself of one nation conquering another is not evil or forbidden….”
    AVD: You have a warped sense of “evil”. Watching the bloody photographs this AM of pregnant women and babies at the hospital who were butchered by Russian aircraft and missiles IS evil. Watching the mass burial of dead non-combatant civilians in unmarked graves in the Southern parts of Ukraine IS evil.

    #2067885
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Gadol, my sense of evil is that which is against the will of Hashem as expressed in dvar Hashem zu halacha; war isn’t pretty, it’s horrific. People die misos meshunos. Targeting non combatants is also not allowed, but if in the course of war there are civilian casualties… that’s the way of the world. halacha does not demand goyjm to be kumbaya peaceful hippies; they’re entitled to build empires and increase their economies as a result. Just because America decided a few years ago (after engaging in this behavior in its founding and subsequently for centuries) that conquest is assur and evil and whatnot, doesn’t make it so.

    Zionists claim this when they say that they’re entitled to gaza and the west bank -“in a war, you win and lose, you’re conquered and you conquer” – why is it ok for Zionists to say this but not Russians?

    #2067897
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    AV: I’ll forego the usual hyperbole with regard to your disgusting comments dismissing the ongoing bloodshed in Ukraine as simply goyim engaged in legitimate butchering of one another in their quest for power and the collateral damage to non-combatants as the “way of the world” and unfortunate. Hopefully, you will never be a victim of the “way of the world” and when something like this c’v happens to yidden, the goyim will show more compassion than you are capable of .

    #2067898
    Marxist
    Participant

    “Just because America decided a few years ago (after engaging in this behavior in its founding and subsequently for centuries) that conquest is assur and evil and whatnot, doesn’t make it so.”

    International law has banned wars of aggression at least from the beginning of the twentieth century. How well these laws have been followed is a different story.

    #2067913

    Do we have support in Tanach or Gemora for discounts given to evildoers who target all nations, without specifying Jews? Or maybe Avira picked up Zionist virus of nationalism. I would think that seeing Z on Russian trucks should stop you!

    Or maybe it is from not paying attention during world history classes. Many reshaim were doing bad things to everyone. For example,
    Sanheriv had a policy of moving nations around to better control them, not just Jews (Stalin copied it, including w/ Crimean Tatars and planning for Jews).
    Romans had no special cruelty towards Jews, that is how they suppressed everyone. “Carthage has to be destroyed”. And this is what Rashbi says – they build roads to collect taxes, etc. Nothing about anti-semitism.
    Even Hamas seems to be triggered by Mordechai’s behavior, not his nation. And he presents a general case to Ahashverosh – a distributed nation …

    #2067925
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    We have to destroy amolek to annihilate the bad midos they had.

    #2067960
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    It seems I’ve stumbled on to an interesting machlokes; the netziv in haemek davar writes the following:

    ומיד האדם מיד איש אחיו אדרוש את נפש האדם”, כתב: “מיד איש אחיו, פירש הקב״ה אימתי האדם נענש בשעה שראוי לנהוג באחוה, מה שאין כן בשעת מלחמה ועת לשנוא אז עת להרוג ואין עונש על זה כלל, כי כך נוסד העולם, וכדאיתא בשבועות ל״ה מלכותא דקטלא חד משיתא לא מיענש, ואפילו מלך ישראל מותר לעשות מלחמת הרשות”[

    He’s saying that the world was established with wars and that a goyish country/King is not punished for even a bloody conflict in which (quoting the gemara in shvuos 35) even if one sixth of the entire population is wiped out, they are not punished.

    Rav menachem ziemba, however, writes the following:

    דעכו״ם יש לו קנין בכיבוש מלחמה, אבל אין לו היתר לכבוש, שאין הנכרי רשאי ללחום עם חברו

    He says that one goy has no right to fight with another, and that yidden have a heter only because of having a Sanhedrin

    So I must retract my statements as only being true according to some poskim – I am interested in this topic and will imyh post more when I find other shitos and sources

    #2068031
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Chasam Sofer explains the passage תלמידי חכמים מרבים שלום בעולם, our sages spread peace to the world, such that there is a fixed number of battles set aside in this world. If it is used in the battle of Torah arguments, then there will be less actual battles in the world.

    #2068034
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Even according to the Netziv does it apply to an unprovoked invasion?

    #2068044
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    You did not translate the above Netziv correctly who says if being a time of hatred and a time to kill, does not get punished, However if there is no reason for hatred, it is not a time to kill and therefore, should be punishment.

    #2068055
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Killing civilians who are not part of the war is achzoriyos and I don’t think the Netziv will approve of it as we find by ihr hanidachas. Being an achzor, killing out the whole city, had to come with a blessing of mercy in order not to learn from it.

    #2068121
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Reb E, he’s talking about milchemes hareshus, which is to increase borders or gain resources

    #2068119
    jackk
    Participant

    Avirah Darah,

    האם בּרור לך שיש כּאן מחלוקת ? אולי הנציב אינו מדבּר על מלחמת כּיבּוש גוים . עיין תוספות שם

    #2068190
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Jack, you’re not the only one who raised that kashya on the netziv – rabbi zevin (whose sefer was my source for the above citations) raised the same difficulty, but the netziv is clearly talking about goyim because he contrasts it with “afili malchei yisroel”

    #2068210

    RebE > Chasam Sofer explains the passage תלמידי חכמים מרבים שלום בעולם,

    +1.

    I understood it as one of the definition of T’Ch – if you seem someone achieving machlokes, then he is not T’Ch. This seems to contradict the idea that a Rav that is liked by everyone may not be strong enough… Maybe there is a difference here:
    As we heard in a video where a woman was provoking an Ashkenzi Rav first and a Sefardi one later “Hu Rav, Ani Chacham”

    #2068484

    I read about tzaddik who was in Soviet GULAG when he heard that Stalin is sick. He went to say tehilim asking Hashem to have the rasha died and, in his words, “did not stop until I was told that he died”.

    With this maaseh rav precedent, FaceMeta usually forbids calls for death to invaders (and Putin himself?) on the territory of Ukraine, Russia and several countries around it. It is revealing that the list only covers Eastern Europe and Caucasus, the rest of the world can not fully express themselves on meta…

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